Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[Naethyn]

There are shamans with plane of sky ring and shamans without plane of sky ring and that is the biggest differentiator.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you have played in a serious raiding guild, you would know that 40 hours is very little time. This is because most of it may be spent waiting for mobs to pop. Remember that the 40 hours is not "40 hours of killing raid targets when they are spawned and your guild got FTE", it is "40 hours of raiding, including waiting for mobs to spawn, including losing a mob to other guilds, etc."

Realistically speaking you have no evidence to suggest the 40 hours (at best) of extra endgame will end up being better than having FSI for your character's entire playtime.

You have no evidence to support your position, and you are changing the normal definition of Min/Max. I don't see any victory for you here in this debate so far.

You never played in a serious guild, AM and VQ were after the server was dead

[PatChapp]

This is a lot of arguing over something pretty pointless

Focus plk

[Tann]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

jesus

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

christ

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lmao

The posts are getting longer and longer with every new page

[fortior]

you can't minmax without a goal to achieve, there is no intrinsic goal you are given in EQ. you have to actually minmax 'for' something, some sort of task or challenge. there's no main quest or achievement list. the closest thing is getting to max level, which barbarians do fastest. getting BiS is another 'obvious' goal which is just time spent raiding, again barbarians win.

if you can kill a mob as an ogre shaman as well as a barbarian shaman, the barbarian shaman is the minmax option because you can do it sooner, since both kill at the same rate, and there's no mob in the game one can kill but the other can't.

a race that takes a penalty to experience in return for a benefit that doesn't translate to killing speed or killing ability is just something you pick for vanity. it's not like iksar monks, who get a huge advantage in regen which helps while xping, or mage, where gnomes can coth effectively while the other races need shrinks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you can't minmax without a goal to achieve, there is no intrinsic goal you are given in EQ. you have to actually minmax 'for' something, some sort of task or challenge. there's no main quest or achievement list. the closest thing is getting to max level, which barbarians do fastest. getting BiS is another 'obvious' goal which is just time spent raiding, again barbarians win.

if you can kill a mob as an ogre shaman as well as a barbarian shaman, the barbarian shaman is the minmax option because you can do it sooner, since both kill at the same rate, and there's no mob in the game one can kill but the other can't.

a race that takes a penalty to experience in return for a benefit that doesn't translate to killing speed or killing ability is just something you pick for vanity. it's not like iksar monks, who get a huge advantage in regen which helps while xping, or mage, where gnomes can coth effectively while the other races need shrinks.

It is strange that you admit Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, but you simultaneously claim that there is no default definition for Min/Max. You can't claim there is no default definition for Min/Max, because then you would have no basis in which to say Iksar Monks are superior. This is why you are wrong in saying there is no default definition of Min/Max.

By admitting Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, you admit there is an objective best racial for different race/class combinations. You can't have it both ways and say that Shamans don't also have an objective best racial.

You know the definition of Min/Max subconsciously, because you understand Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks. This Min/Max definition is the default definition for all games like Everquest. The default Min/Max definition is to create the best character you can. This means a character that will perform better than it's alternatives when you are level 60 with max gear and all your spells. This is why Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks, because a level 60 BiS Iksar Monk will still have Racial Regeneration, while a level 60 BiS Human Monk would not.

I am not sure why this is so difficult, the Min/Max definition for games like Everquest hasn't changed, and Everquest came out in 1999.

[fortior]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is weird that you admit Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, but you simultaneously think that there is no definition of Min/Maxing. This is why you are wrong in saying there is no default definition of Min/Max.

By admitting Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, you admit there is an objective best racial for different race/class combinations. You can't have it both ways and say that Shamans don't also have an objective best racial.

You know the definition of Min/Max subconsciously, because you understand Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks. This Min/Max definition is the default definition for all games like Everquest. The default Min/Max definition is to create the best character you can. This means a character that will perform better than it's alternatives when you are level 60 with max gear and all your spells. This is why Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks, because a level 60 BiS Iksar Monk will still have Racial Regeneration, while a level 60 BiS Human Monk would not.

I am not sure why this is so difficult, the Min/Max definition for games like Everquest hasn't changed, and Everquest came out in 1999.

Monks don't have torpor or slow, theyre a melee class, so there's stuff an iksar monk can kill that an equivalently geared human monk can't. for shamans every shaman with torpor can do the exact same mobs, which is anything they can slow or anything that deals less damage than torpor. If there is a goal ogre shamans can achieve which other shamans can't, the situation would be different, but there isn't.

disregarding xp maluses as irrelevant is spherical cow stuff, if you do it you basically don't know anything about the game or p99's version of it. P99 is a very competitive classic EQ box, speed is king. if there are two options, and one levels faster, and both can do the same content, the faster option is better

You can't say one race performs better than another when there is no content in the game that distinguishes between them, i.e. which one race can do but another can't. my iksar monk can solo things my human monk can't at similar gear levels, it's not the same situation (since the difference is just a bunch of hp regen and ac on a melee)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Monks don't have torpor or slow, theyre a melee class, so there's stuff an iksar monk can kill that an equivalently geared human monk can't. for shamans every shaman with torpor can do the exact same mobs, which is anything they can slow or anything that deals less damage than torpor. If there is a goal ogre shamans can achieve which other shamans can't, the situation would be different, but there isn't.

You admitted that some racials are better than others. It doesn't matter if the racial bonus is significant or not. The same logic applies. You can rank order any racial in terms of best to worse on any class, even if the racial is only a minor bonus. You can't have it both ways and say racials on Monks can be rank ordered, but racials from other classes cannot be rank ordered.

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

disregarding xp maluses as irrelevant is spherical cow stuff, if you do it you basically don't know anything about the game or p99's version of it. P99 is a very competitive classic EQ box, speed is king. if there are two options, and one levels faster, and both can do the same content, the faster option is better

Leveling quickly is only relevant for a short time on P99, when the server is new or rolling out new content. Neither server has been like that for years. Trying to claim this is still the case on Green or Blue is silly. Even in that scenario you are not picking the Min/Max option, you are instead picking the fastest leveling option to get a specific item. Sure, you can level a Mage to 50 to farm Manastones, but then you have a 50 Mage you probably aren't going to use in Velious for anything other than a CoTH bot.

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't say one race performs better than another when there is no content in the game that distinguishes between them, i.e. which one race can do but another can't. my iksar monk can solo things my human monk can't at similar gear levels, it's not the same situation (since the difference is just a bunch of hp regen and ac on a melee)

You easily can. If an Ogre Shaman can win fights more often than Shamans of other races due to FSI, even if that increase in won fights is small, then they are superior.

Your argument that "it isn't significant" is irrelevant. 2% is better than 1%, just like 50% is better than 30%. This is an objective truth regardless of the difference in percentages.

[fortior]

of course some racials have more impact than others, but you don't pick racials, you pick a race and a class. looking at the strength of individual racials is pointless, they're package deals. and the fact is that every shaman package you can pick has the same upper bound of potential, limited more by gear and levels than race, as you can see from the solo artist leaderboard.

essentially it's like spending more money on a faster car only to drive the exact same speed limit as a cheaper car. if there is nothing in game hard enough to demand the supposed advantage ogres have, that advantage doesn't exist.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

looking at the strength of individual racials is pointless, they're package deals.

Not everybody agrees with you. Some people like to Min/Max, which means picking the best racial for a specific class.

I am not sure why you are bothered by this. I am just giving people the facts as to which racial bonus is objectively the best for Shamans. Let people who want to Min/Max enjoy the game too lol.

Knowledge is power. Let people know which racial bonus is objectively the best for a specific class, and then they can decide which race works best for them.

Plenty of people don't care if they pick a suboptimal race. There is nothing wrong with that. But if someone wants to Min/Max specifically, they need information like which racial is the best for a given class.