Enchanters didn't charm until PoP dire charm AA

[RecondoJoe]

Originally Posted by Hyjalx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This thread is on enchanters, and only 1 enchanter beat me to max AA's, period. It was a race and I remember it well. And it was specifically using charm.

Anyone who followed Club Fu or played on Bristlebane knows I was better geared than just about every INT caster on live until I retired at the end of PoP. I stacked CHA/STA/HP. That certainly played a part using charm as I helped lead Club Fu with Pouty. Nobody calls me out on this, because its fact.

Most of ya'll probably never played an enchanter or were geared enough to charm. But charm was working well before PoP. Again, we were charming hatchlings in NToV and Giants in Kael. Bristlebane's first AOW kill was done with like 20 charmed giants. This same strategy was used with Afterlife and FoH. I also specifically remember charming in Chardok as well.

To be honest, most of us were using 300 MHZ computers with 8 or 16mb of ram during classic and kunark on CRT monitors that made moving efficiently extremely difficult.

Find some old parts and slap them together from 1997-2000. Have a friend who's never played EQ gear an enchanter and attempt to charm with shit gear and let me know how it goes. Bet he/she dies and doesn't try again.

Wait, are you actually comparing Luclin and PoP to P99?

Most of us were never around geared enchanters despite being in guilds that had NToV on ez farm...

And almost all of us remember enchanters on our servers doing something really cool with charm, but like charming giants in Kael, it was a massive feat and a large effort. Charm was not reliable. Did people do cool stuff with it? Of course. But no one was just rolling around solo charming 1-60 in 2 days.

When I first came to P99 and duod with Klide all the way to 50 and charm would break I would be like “well, time to let that one die” because this was always the case 20 years ago. I did actually have a lot of experience with charm 20 years ago, and knew it could be powerful, but it was established that once charm broke a mob was basically uncharmable, and this is why groups didn’t like using it. It was a super high risk, high reward ability. Now it’s super low risk, super high reward ability.

If they want to make a better classic server they should literally make a server where charm is nerfed. Whether you think it’s classic or not, it would make the way the game is played on that server more classic and balanced. I remember enchanter as the rare class who people always wanted for mez, haste and clarity. Not the dime a dozen god class.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Hyjalx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This thread is on enchanters, and only 1 enchanter beat me to max AA's, period. It was a race and I remember it well. And it was specifically using charm.

Anyone who followed Club Fu or played on Bristlebane knows I was better geared than just about every INT caster on live until I retired at the end of PoP. I stacked CHA/STA/HP. That certainly played a part using charm as I helped lead Club Fu with Pouty. Nobody calls me out on this, because its fact.

Most of ya'll probably never played an enchanter or were geared enough to charm. But charm was working well before PoP. Again, we were charming hatchlings in NToV and Giants in Kael. Bristlebane's first AOW kill was done with like 20 charmed giants. This same strategy was used with Afterlife and FoH. I also specifically remember charming in Chardok as well.

To be honest, most of us were using 300 MHZ computers with 8 or 16mb of ram during classic and kunark on CRT monitors that made moving efficiently extremely difficult.

Find some old parts and slap them together from 1997-2000. Have a friend who's never played EQ gear an enchanter and attempt to charm with shit gear and let me know how it goes. Bet he/she dies and doesn't try again.

Again, we all agree charming existed in classic: no one is saying otherwise. But look, you and I were on the same server: do you remember Dome, a Druid in your guild (he also had an Enchanter named Domey)? Do you happen to know if Dome charm soloed his way to 60? I can tell you, he didn't.

Dome's most elite XPing strategy was to quad Barbarians/Dwarves (not knowing this, when I later inherited his account, I would get Dome killed several times by visiting Butcherblock/Everfrost [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]). It wasn't because he didn't know how to play his character, and it certainly wasn't his Internet connection, because like many in Club Fu he played from a gaming center with a T1.

So, he had a good connection, he was in the most powerful and knowledgeable guild on the server, and yet he completely eschewed animal charming (which every Druid here will happily tell you is an amazing way to get XP) ... why?

I submit that it's not because charming didn't exist: as you noted Fu absolutely charmed. I'd also submit that it's not because he was a dummy or had a bad connection. The most logical explanation I can see is that, it was because charming wasn't as safe and as easy on live as it is here.

[RecondoJoe]

Also, when WoW classic launched a couple years ago, why didn’t we see massive player improvements? Shouldn’t we have expected to see players doing things they never did 17 years ago because obviously players 17 years ago were cavemen.

Yet we don’t. I wonder why...

[cd288]

Originally Posted by RecondoJoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you could travel back in time you would probably get rejected by every elite guild. I personally remember how stringent the requirements were, and even WoWs top raiding guilds pale in comparison

Also it’s weird how you use the year 1999 specifically to speak for the EQ community as a whole

The game was only out for a month in 1999, and most people didn’t even know the game existed until 2001+

When most of us talk about what we remember we are talking about 2001-2004

Not the single month of 1999 where most servers didn’t even have enough players over level 10 to form a group in Unrest

What’re you talking about? Everquest came out in March 1999 you idiot

[ghost wolves]

Originally Posted by RecondoJoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, when WoW classic launched a couple years ago, why didn’t we see massive player improvements? Shouldn’t we have expected to see players doing things they never did 17 years ago because obviously players 17 years ago were cavemen.

Yet we don’t. I wonder why...

The world record for 1 - 60 in WoW Classic is 36 hours. People were speed running it as soon as it dropped and yes, they were doing PLENTY of things people didn't do 17 years ago. You can watch it on YouTube/Twitch. Search for Zeegers.

[ghost wolves]

Here is a comment from Kunark era talking about using the Goblin Gazughi Ring to break charm.

So here you go, people were charming in Kunark.

[starkind]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Simple reality after reviewing all the evidence on Charm:

1. It was too buggy to use until late classic era. This is already well proven and undeniable. All pets were garbage due to pathing issues, etc and charm was even worse.

2. Charming was done but only in outdoor zones where SoW and open areas allowed escaping certain death from interrupts. It was also used by high level Enchanters who couldn't mez giants and they were pissed about having to charm fire giants to CC them, not excited about it, and multiple posts mention the almost certain death from trying this. This was in a raid situation not soloing FGs or duoing, etc.

3. Channeling made charming almost impossible to do indoors or anywhere else you would be in combat while trying to cast. The stun spells did not mitigate this. IMO this is still the biggest missing component on P99 to "fix" charm.

4. Mob resists were much more intricate on live than on P99. Tons of posts calling out testing and specific mobs in relation to MR. For example, all undead, etc were known to have high MR that made them unsuitable to charm.

5. Charming planar mobs was never worthwhile. It was actually extremely difficult to even mez them working in teams with an MR debuffer, etc. The idea that Brad "The Vision" McQuaid would release Plane of Fear/Hate and then sit back watching Enchanters with 10 charmed pets clearing the whole zone in an hour is laughable. This is a guy who thought kiting mobs was too extreme and outside the vision.

6. There was no "knowledge gap." People were addicted to live EQ, a shit load more people were playing, tons of websites existed with information from beta, etc. Everyone knew how things were supposed to work they just didn't work that way. No shortage of posts from crying Enchanters about all kinds of bugs with their spells not just charm.

7. For group and raid charming something is wrong about aggro generation on P99. Classic era posts support the "untauntable" aggro Enchanters could generate with mez and charm that is nowhere close to how P99 works. We all remember Enchanters running around crying until they died as everyone tried desperately to control a mob that was on them. We already know Mez on P99 is bugged because it is supposed to only wipe aggro on the first cast. You can't recast mez on a mob to re-wipe aggro, it has to fade first then be reapplied. This is at least one big bug/difference on P99 that lets Enchanter have significantly less aggro compared to live.


That's about it. This is the middle ground no one wants to acknowledge it seems. Charming was used, mostly outdoors, and it was never used to clear planes or solo dungeons like it is on P99. It was rarely used in groups as an emergency spell when a wipe seemed certain. Widely regarded as something you'd cast in a group that had an equal chance of getting you killed vs saving the group. This is because of differences in channeling rate, mob MR, aggro, and bugs. Charming eventually reached "P99" status by Velious era and FOH guild posting confirms this and mentions the exact same reasons above. Velious introduced larger zones including dungeons where the Enchanter had room to run and escape melee while charming. Bugs were mostly fixed by this era.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P.S. Tons of evidence supports all the claims made above. It's pretty much undeniable that all of that is true as backed up by evidence, client de-compiles, in era posting, etc. There really shouldn't be anymore discussion on this because it's already proven charm on P99 is nowhere close to classic. Until at a minimum channeling gets fixed then P99 is easy mode. Enchanter just seems to abuse this the most.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you missed out what may be a big one - either mob attack could be too low or the by level worn AC caps are too high.

Yeah. Everyone should get hit harder, more. Avoidance from dodge, parry, riposte is off... (low) u could very well easily die from riposte on mobs over 50 if you swung fast, and didn't get heals. Damage should be way spikier. Channeling should be nerfed 70%. Root let you get away or gate at high lvl. Not win vs 3 mobs. Especially if a clothy, not a cleric.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People arguing encs play better now. Because they can solo.

Wrong. It is an mmorpg. Enchanters were better before because they grouped and roleplayed.

This, role players loved chanters to because of illusions [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by RecondoJoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Idk why but TLP is always got groups... I always try to go places to solo since I’m kind of twinked... and I can’t because people are always grouped everywhere and send me an invite the second I enter the zone lol

I kind of miss ZEM from p99...like leveling in Marus Seru is MIND NUMBING compared to Unrest, Splitpaw, Mistmoore etc..

In this regard TLP feels more classic because you legit just go to an outdoor zone and spam pull as many mobs as you can and the loot is terrible.. but dungeon leveling is much more fun on P99... but I think less popular on Aradune... idek though... there’s always groups at Fireplace in UR but somehow last night Ai ended up in Marus Seru for 9 hours and it was so boring

Originally Posted by RecondoJoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wait, are you actually comparing Luclin and PoP to P99?

Most of us were never around geared enchanters despite being in guilds that had NToV on ez farm...

And almost all of us remember enchanters on our servers doing something really cool with charm, but like charming giants in Kael, it was a massive feat and a large effort. Charm was not reliable. Did people do cool stuff with it? Of course. But no one was just rolling around solo charming 1-60 in 2 days.

When I first came to P99 and duod with Klide all the way to 50 and charm would break I would be like “well, time to let that one die” because this was always the case 20 years ago. I did actually have a lot of experience with charm 20 years ago, and knew it could be powerful, but it was established that once charm broke a mob was basically uncharmable, and this is why groups didn’t like using it. It was a super high risk, high reward ability. Now it’s super low risk, super high reward ability.

If they want to make a better classic server they should literally make a server where charm is nerfed. Whether you think it’s classic or not, it would make the way the game is played on that server more classic and balanced. I remember enchanter as the rare class who people always wanted for mez, haste and clarity. Not the dime a dozen god class.

This server is supposed to be classic and hard. If you (not you RecondoJoe) want easy mode go play live, PeQ, or TakP. If you're crazy and want to solo play a necromancer or shm, or go box on live and PeQ or TakP.

If you want some nostalgia, come here and get face wrecked by 140 damage triple attacks and stuns and intereupts x 3 mobs on a 1200 hp clothy where planar mobs resist, memblur/mez is classic, and charm is so agro, you kill the pets when they break.

Blurr is certainly broken on atone. My cleric would not get blurs without 10-20 casts.

Maybe make mobs remember all their agro/charms if they re-agro. Would make charm agro seem more normal...

I don't see why some other group can't make a classic custom no boxing ez server with luclin/pop mechanics. For the kids here to go solo on.

Anyway. I'm cool. Not gonna be upset if it never gets fixed. But I'm missing my nostalgia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Honestly think only about 75 players on this project actually played in 99. Most of us are shaking our heads like huhhhh when we see ppl pulling at high lvl in zones higher than MM. High end MM should be a little bit harder too.

Remember it's the journey and friends, not the MR and resistance checks and ability to farm 10kpp or make 60 lvl 60 alts on through away accounts.

Imo if the right changes were made. Server pop would go up to 2k and yall would see a ton more melees running around.

[starkind]

140 damage triple attacks and stuns and intereupts x 3 mobs

Is 1,260 damage you aren't channeling through like 9 hits in two seconds.

Clicking GCD reset doesn't save u. Getting an aoe stun may buy u an AoE mez that might resist or allow you to gate.

Brad Bless. <3

[starkind]

Amygdalan warrior
Damage per hit: 38 - 144

Imo mobs hit harder, and clothies got facewrecked way harder than what's in most data grabs and most people's logs. Especially before luclin.

I remember two combat revamps, and being absolutely wreck by mage pets, but after one of the revamps, even tho pets still hit pretty hard my sk could take on a blue pet, but it took everything.

[bwe]

If you look at an MRI from an enchanter player in 1999 you'll see that their brain is about half as big as an enchanter player in 2021