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Old 03-22-2023, 10:31 AM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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Default Bard Aggro

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412540

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Patch Notes: Friday, December 23rd, 2022

Rogean: Bards are now capped at 140 aggro per song/spell/proc in all circumstances.
By most accounts, throughout the classic timeline and beyond, bards were described as having high taunt by way of song. Commonly referred to now as snap aggro, specific songs were known to generate considerably more hate than others, so much so that bards were used as tanks/offtanks. It appears the majority of songs that caused aggro were lower level versions, though there are many comments made post-2001 that suggest other high level songs had a similar effect.

The complaints about their aggro were made regularly enough that the developers were said to have lowered it once while also giving the class Song of Dawn and boosting its defensive skills. Below are a number of those complaints, with a few exceptions, along with guides and detailed accounts describing how aggro was used/managed.


https://web.archive.org/web/20001101...s/b_pcomb.html

04:28:12 Nov 01, 2000

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2. Bard as Tank
 As mentioned above, Bards can wear armor up to Plate, and it seems hard. But can you be a Tank that attacks the opponent you should defeat first (probably the strongest opponent) and takes on that attack yourself? If you ask me (currently level 27), no . Of course, at lower levels, you can also try to act as a Tank. For example, up to level 25, it might be possible somehow--even though it's far inferior to your main job and you'll have to bear the risk of death. The reason for the number 25 is that the skill cap for the Dodge skill is 125.

 I think that Bard is fatal as a Tank for the following two points.

  ・Only Dodge has defensive skills, and the skill cap is low (Max125)
  ・Other warrior-type characters who don't have much HP themselves

 seem to have at least two defensive skills. Dodge and Parry. At least if the activation probability is the same, than a bird that only has Dodge... how many times longer? So what is Bard's Dodge and supposedly high AC for?--I think both Bard's defense and Dodge are negative, unlike Tank classes like Warrior. Bard's song has a strong taunt ability and is easy to attract enemies, so naturally it is easy to get attacked, and it is often the case that you will be hit before you know it. And it is thought that it is to endure until the party members realize that, or until they are free to deal with them.
 Bards are not good for tanks. However, if there is no Tank type class, you may have to play the role of Tank. At that time, make sure you have a healer, clear it with a rush, or think about your enemy's choice. Even if he wasn't playing Tank, death would be close to Bard..

2. Bard as Sub Tank
 Bard wrote that he could not serve as a Tank. What about SubTank? The Sub Tank here is more of an Assiter and an Attacker, and it is a place to peel off small fish that have moved to a caster etc. (There are various definitions of Tank, Sub Tank, etc. Sub Tank = Attacker, should be a SubTank, and the Tank is the role of taunting and taking damage, or the Attacker and the Tunt role are the same as the Tank... well, that's the definition here).
 As a Sub-Tank, Bard would be useful to some extent. If you have Dual Whield and equip a weapon, you have a decent amount of offensive power. And you can also tear off enemies that have moved to the caster, if you use a song with a bard, for example, the level 24 Snare Song has a strong taunt, and after a few shots it will turn to you, and the level 27 Charm Song You can also turn enemies into pets to buy you some time—easily possible. As a sub-tank, it may be best for a bird to act while watching the battle situation. But of course, don't forget your vulnerability. In any case, it would be meaningless to take damage from the scraped small fish and trouble the healer's hands...

https://web.archive.org/web/20010413.../brd/song2.htm

02:09:15 Apr 13, 2001

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Part 3 About Taunt performance

Songs that affect enemies have a particularly strong Taunt ability.
Sleep, Charm, Lv20 speeddown, Lv23 Snare, etc. These outperform the Tank's Taunt.
The taunt performance of songs that affect allies is moderate.
https://web.archive.org/web/20010821...rd/intro.htm#2

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c. Comparison with Tank
Because Plate can be worn and the song has a strong taunt effect, it tends to be thought that it is close to Tank.
However, in fact, it has less HP and only defense skill Dodge, and it
is quite easy to die compared to Tank because it is targeted by all surrounding enemies.
https://web.archive.org/web/20010713...q/brd/song.htm

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Lv15 Sleep song

...

・Punch an enemy while using SubTank's Sleep. It can surpass warrior's Taunt etc. If MainTank's HP is low, Bard can tank as a sub, which will increase the endurance of the entire party.
When there are few enemies, this is better than focusing on Sleep.
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Lv23 Snare song
It is often referred to as the Root song, but it actually has the same effect as Snare, which can be used by DRU, and is a song that slows down the enemy's attack speed and movement speed.
Attack speed reduction is almost the same as Lv20, and seems to stack with Lv20.
Movement speed is reduced to the point where fleeing enemies are about to die and move a little faster than they started walking slowly. When the enemy's physical strength is about 1/4, the foot will stop completely.
The difference with Root is that if you sing to an enemy who has run away, he will not fight back after stopping.
The same thing is that it has a terrific taunt effect (lol), easily surpassing War's taunt.
The advantage is that you can hit inexhaustibly and you can use it while chasing the fleeing enemy, but the effect time is about 15 seconds.

As of September 1999, all movement-type magic is Pacth, and the specs have changed over and over, so compatibility with each magic is a little confusing. The enemy's bogus Indoor Sow cannot be erased, but Root seems to be able to negate it... no good? (Even if Root disappears, if you're 15 seconds too slow, you can't escape).
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Lv27 Charm song

...

The Taunt of Taunt Charm is intense, and the enemy once angered by Chram will not peel off easily. Conversely, you can also use this as a Taunt. It is also possible to taunt multiple enemies using the method described above. …Why did Bard memorize this, me (sweat.
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 It is linked with the Taunt effect of Range Songs such as Substitute Sleep and Support Songs. I personally prefer to use it. After putting multiple enemies to sleep, Bard itself becomes a target from multiple enemies, and charms one to retreat before the enemy wakes up. Then "Pet Guard me".

https://web.archive.org/web/20010821...d/tactics2.htm

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 When I went to the back of the building, it seemed that most of the cleaning had already been completed. When you get a friend to join you and go inside, the enemy Spwan is out of alignment. If you are fighting while thinking that this is easy, the only tank in the party will "sleep".

I said, ``Is that the role of Tank?''
Everyone said, ``Yes.''

Guuu, the enemy's Spwan is out of place for now, so I'll manage somehow. Although the enemy is strong, most of them are undead that are easy to kill instantly. However, it is not as hard as Tank, so it will be a guarantee of your life if you use a powerful Taunt and make sure that the cast of the rear guard is never interrupted. Then the song is Charm . A weapon in both hands is better for Taunt than a shield in the left hand.

Will Tomahork's short-term invincibility special effect make up for the lack of defense ? Once you reach Lv25, the enemies you fight in parties are often blue, so it's been activated quite often, and recently I've been using Tomahork again.

However, when it comes to attacking after Charming, in order to ensure Chram, I want to equip an instrument first. It takes some time before you can expect the taunt effect, including punching, so it's not good for the back guard to suddenly hit attack magic. There is also the possibility that the song will be resisted. If the enemy POPs, I'll charm it anyway, so even if I cast magic, I'll ask my friends to use stun magic (if possible, I'd like to tell them to wait until Charm, but I can't say that to HAG).
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In the meantime, for some reason, CLR, who was on the 3rd floor as reinforcements (even if the floor is different, you can heal and attack from the bottom, so there is no problem) brings 3 enemies . Ugh, my HP is pretty low. Charm while punching enemies. The first one was torn off.
Press the NearNPC key to hit the second one. Damn, punching and a little taunt effect song (note: probably stronger than War's) won't come off. It can't be helped, so Charm (Area Sleep seems to provoke underground enemies in this place, so it's forbidden). It also peeled off. In the meantime, CLR Heal seems to be done to some extent.
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The impression that I tried is "Heal taunts are more likely to occur than holding down enemies with range Sleep, but if there are a certain number of enemies, it's easier to leave the tank to fight".

Recently, I've heard from some HiLvBards that "range sleep is dangerous in advanced dungeons", and when the number of enemies is usually within the expected range, use Buff songs, Let's practice how to fight with Lv28 stun (sleep) and Charm to support Taunt Work.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000510...ML/000541.html

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Marziale
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Posts: 31
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-05-2000 08:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Marziale Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Aye, tis a hard choice....Marziale is a lvl 20 Bardiebabe and Vonda is of the 11th lvl mage.
I LOVE Marz, but mostly because I have friends to group her with. Many of the bard songs tend to agro creatures because you are casting on the whole group, so a good group is essential especially if you opt to put down your weapon and play an instrument during battle!!!

https://web.archive.org/web/20040124...p?p=474896&amp

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<Ninina>
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2001 1:20 pm Post subject: Aggro lowerer Reply with quote
I think that bards need to get a song or ability such as evade to lower their aggro on mobs. When don't have the hit points to take a beating and rogues AND enchanters get a spell/ability to acomplish this, and are we not a cross between them? It seems clear to me that we need this added to our abilities to balance us out, as atleast 5 other classes can do it I think it falls under a jack of all trades skill
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Carlota
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Joined: 26 Mar 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2001 7:40 pm Post subject: Aggro lowerer Reply with quote
Actually there are exellent weapons which procs a spell which lowers MoB agro.
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<Garathe>
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2001 6:28 am Post subject: Aggro lowerer Reply with quote
There also is a song that lowers agro. It is just at a high level

song of the dawn lever 53 song is the one

Garath Willowreed
The Bard of K'ardi Drasad

https://web.archive.org/web/20010727...s.asp?&song=40

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27 Solon's Song of the Sirens Charms the target and turns it into your pet for up to 15 seconds. Highly dependent on your charisma. Will not work on 37+ mobs, but there is a charm upgrade by then. High aggro effect, but you can turn that into your advantage when the mob is aggroing on a caster. Useful when your party pulls more than 1 mob, put one on your side!

https://web.archive.org/web/20010204...ML/053745.html

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NadiraAndante
Station Member posted 01-31-2001 04:09 PM
Alright Absor...

...

This is why we need better defensive skills. Even though verant over time did tune down our hate from songs a little (6way constant helping spells really really used to piss off monsters worse than now, and even now it's pretty horrifying) I will bet you that anytime there's a train in a plane the bards will go down first. The only exception would be someone doing big AEs, but since I play on PvP you don't really do that in raids lest you kill your own raid team.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010222.../000665-3.html

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Mulamasi_TZ
Station Member posted 02-18-2001 04:56 PM
Lullaby (15) - Keep it AE, remove the secondary resist and make insturment use help alot. Risk vs Reward here, the bard is racking up alot of hate on all the mobs at once with this and a few resists could mean their death.

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SIRANUI-ToD
Station Member posted 02-19-2001 02:11 AM

I'm sorry, Absor; I do not find this a very good list for the following reasons. Are these the only issues to be addressed? What I'd like to see is a few comments about where you (VI) see the bard in your game and what you see as reasonable and not; a background for the bard class if you will. This will help steer us - at the moment we are a jack-of-all trades class and in many ways don't know what to comment on, except for existing bugs. Can we please have feedback on status items NOT on your list, and reasons for non-implimentation; that would make me a lot happier.
Predominatly, you're dealing with existing bugs, rather than sailing 'fresh' waters. Yes, we all would love bug fixes, but we'd also like enhances in line with other classes and the use of a little imagination on the development team's behalf, rather than just fixing existing code. You seem to be taking the path of least resistance. Fixing what was broken is not balancing.

Again, a few points that spring to mind:

1) Give us an icon for mana song. This will save us getting told 'play mana' at least once an hour and would be an across-the-board benifit.

2) Increase in defense cap makes no sense and seems to be a simple 'keep-em-happy' enhancement route to take. post 50 (when extra defence raises kick in), we do not have the need for it (we are non-taunters and do not tend to get hit much unless we're on CC). From a RP point of view, why should an entertainer have the same defense as a knight or highly trained warrior? Jumping back to thread 5, yes defence is hard to raise, but it does happen eventually, as higher XP demands give greater oppertunity at increase per level. Aggro list manipulation is a good way to get increases. Ask for mobs to be rooted - then either manipulate aggro to get hit heck, I can taunt off a 59th ranger in this situation, much to his chargrin), or simply ask tanks to not taunt. I would rather be enhanced in another direction that makes sense.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010222.../000665-5.html

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Starling_Bane
Station Member posted 02-22-2001 06:45 AM
Ignore the trolling. Any bards who are as disgusted as I am with the bard issues (or lack of) addressed by the latest patch, please post your discontent. Reasoned arguement is obviously ignored, all we have left is complaint. Better still, vote with your feet & quit!
*Maybe* some of the bard problems raised will be addressed in a future patch, but, once again, the bards are left to last (probably to be overlooked yet again).

1) Increased defense cap.
Great for the lower level bards who have such a high aggro.
Congratulations on this benefit, I don't begrudge you. From the point of view of a level 55 bard though, it's useless. I find it impossible to even generate any aggro at this level - I wish I could.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010215...ML/055105.html

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kfsone
Station Member posted 02-05-2001 01:55 PM
With regards to the new changes from Test.

...

Instead of seriously investigating this, you simply give us warrior like defense? The problem with this is that it is ill considered given the numerous defensive songs that a bard has available to them. Bards are soft and squishy and create lots of agro. This is the baseline challenge of the class. What justification is there for increasing our defensive capabilities?
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MMMyra
Station Member posted 02-05-2001 02:53 PM
I wanted to throw my own two cents in on this, especially since most of the comments here seem to focus on the high end game and less on stuff below 40 to 45. My bard isn't 40 yet and issues for her are different, and fit into a few broad categories. I think one of the core balancing issues is how our songs seem to be valued for balancing.
First at all levels we seem to be evaluated as a partial tank, well depending on who you ask we are a pure caster after some level in the high 20s or 30s doing very little tanking because we have this massive aggro rate and pure caster level hp, and both weak combat defense and offense. At some point our songs must be powerful enough to compete with pure casters for effectiveness because we are effectively casters that stop tanking later than other casters, or we must have our combat skills increased in some way to make it realistic that we are a secondary tank.

...

The other part of the miscalculation is based on aggro. I am the queen of aggro. I have been in a number of parties with two characters with taunt and a rogue backtabbing, and I am the target for the mob or mobs. I understand that it used to be worse, it is still way ahead of any other class. I think this is partly true because it seems like a lot of our songs are evaluated for aggro based on their potential effect instead of actual. So for example our healing song seems to aggro as if I am healing every party member, even if only one of them is injured. For our buffs and debuffs we are hit a for aggro in a way that no other class is. Mobs don't get pissed at any other class for buffing party members because they buff in down time, and/or one party member at a time. We get hit with agro for buffing, and that haste component falling on the cleric sitting medding to heal counts. And unlike any other caster we need to be close in to the fight to have our buffs, and debuffs work, making it much easier for the mobs to hit us. We don't have significantly more HP than those casters who get to sit back further from the fight. They aren't immune to aggro, but tend to be in much better shape than us, by being further from the fight.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../055105-3.html

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RomanyFox
Station Member posted 02-08-2001 07:10 AM

...

In addition, the dev team needs to realize that most bard songs DO have a mana cost. In the virtual mana you aren't returning to the casters/healers AND in blood. Bard mana is mostly paid in blood (aggro) - my hits are what race down as I play, the question isn't whether I'll be OOM but OOhitpoints and thus unable to contribute a spell. While I'm chain casting snare 12 times in order to keep it more or less on for 30 seconds i'm being beaten on - draining mana from the healers to keep me alive and running the risk of dying for what is essentially a no-cost spell for a ranger or other snare-enabled class.

So.... my suggestions:

1) lower restists on Snare, Lull, Lullabye, Mez, Charm lines to roughly half what they are now.

I know this seems insanely high but the gap here between use and non-use is HUGE. These things grow increasingly weak as we progress in levels and thus we become harder and harder to justify as doing anything other than mana song.

2) lower resists for other bard songs by a reasonable factor - perhaps 10% - to compensate for the aggro effects which are still extremely punishing.

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Plundar
Station Member posted 02-08-2001 09:04 AM

...

5)Our TAUNT skill is pathetic when I need to taunt a MOB off another party member it is almost impossible. My only way to do this now is to charm the MOB. From levels 1 to 25 we can't keep the MOBs off us, after that I can't get there attention, even our mezs don't make the MOB forget about the other party member it was chasing. Perhaps we need the TAUNT skill or a song with an extremely high aggro value but without the charm.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../055105-5.html

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Steevin
Station Member posted 02-10-2001 10:33 AM

...

Dalakar_Daystar: "Often, If my group is in trouble, I'll fire up one of my super aggro-AoE songs, or, these days, start charming and mezzing left and right, and tell everyone to get the hell out of there. Assuming they obey me, I'm left with a bunch of mobs ticked off at me, the HP of a pure caster/priest type, and probably not enough AC to offset that ... A Well-played Bard dies often, so that his group may live. And most of my regular grouping partners will back this up, The Bard dies first."

...

You, and people like you, die because of the way you play your character, not because you play a Bard. I could just as easily take an enchanter and say the same thing, or a cleric, or a warrior. I could taunt every single mob onto me and die for the group so they can get away. Doesn't make me a group god, just makes me dead.

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Digory
Station Member posted 02-10-2001 08:27 AM

...

I think the idea of providing bards better defense skills is very good. A lot of the songs are defensive in nature already. If the bard is taking a ton of damage (often) while singing defense songs, he doesnt last long. These defense songs (for example rhythm line and psalm line) mostly stack with other lines. That differs from the buffing lines.

...

SO maybe the enhancements are
1) Reduce taunt on some defensive songs or reduce natural taunt. Except for damage songs and healing
, the monster just doesn't recognize the effect because it's subtle?

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../055105-2.html

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Scythe
Station Member posted 02-06-2001 08:00 PM
A few ideas that would make the bard slightly more group friendly at higher levels:
1) Round out the chant series of songs with a disease and a poison debuff version. It will not strengthen the offense of a bard, since we already have 3 we can twist together, but it will let us reduce resists that most other classes can't touch. Since we have a psalm song for every resist, having an equivilent debuff isn't out of character.

2) A self-only evade song. Each pulse would move us down the targets hate list, so we can sacrifice 1 group buff/song cycle to attract less attention from the mobs. This post is full of complaints about the unwanted attention a bard in a full group gets, this would help without having to change the dynamics of the hate list system.

3) If hot keys had 2 more lines, a recycle command, and would stay depressed, macros like this could be build:

/pause 27, /cast 1
/pause 3, /cast 1
/pause 27, /cast 2
/pause 3, /cast 2
/pause 27, /cast 3
/pause 3, /cast 3
/repeat

Once you press the hotkey, it stays depressed, cycling through the songs. When you press it again, it breaks the cycle. This will mean a bard could build macros for occasions like downtime, so a bard isn't having to hit a key every 3 seconds to be their most efficient. This adds nothing to the game, and gets very annoying.

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dyahannah
Station Member posted 02-06-2001 11:29 PM
scythe, we have an evade song, its called song of dawn and it works well enough
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TundraYeti
Station Member posted 02-07-2001 01:11 AM

...

Double Attack will not help bards, we have enough problems with agro as it is. The defense upgrade will mean I live an extra second maybe if something decides that I should die now. More hps, well, that's not really what barding is about. We enhance the group, subtly, and that's what I'd like to be able to do.

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spankytoes
Station Member posted 02-07-2001 09:28 AM

...

Defense- I think that it has been well pointed out that we are MOB magnets. Give us some HP and AC. While I agree that instruments are the best tactic of attack in most cases, bards will find the need to melee in some cases. The fact that casters have 100 or so less HP than me is utterly ridiculous. That is 2 hits from a MOB in the 30's. If we have caster HP, then we should have stronger songs. If it came to a choice between a bard and a cleric dying...who will see the Loading screen? (At ANY level)

https://web.archive.org/web/20010206.../052807-2.html

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Skalme
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 05:25 PM
Wow, some of these requests are a little overboard, but I kind of expected that.
My highest bard being level 41, I can't comment on the upper level stuff.

...

I can accept that I am lousy at melee, at my level I'm usually swinging a fist in between songs anyway. I expect this to continue. Is there a way to actually dual wield the fists with an instrument in your hand?

Aggro aggro aggro.. why is it that every monster in the universe hates bards more than any other class? I realize that song aggro has been dropped once already, but it's still quite high. (as an example) in CoM the other night, a SK was pulling things, when he got back to the group even if I wasn't singing it would fly past him and smack me until he taunted it off. This isn't all that uncommon, in other places any monsters beyond the first will charge past the tanks to the caster area where I am.

Those are all my comments/suggestions for the moment.
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Jochomo
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 05:28 PM
*****
Absor,
*****
I doubt you'll read this far, but if so, I've tried to make your name more noticeable because I have several points to make:

1. "Bards are the most beat on of any class..." Aradune

2. "Bards are not really a hybrid class..." Abashi

What do these points have to do with anything?

Well, for the most part, if Bards are indeed the most beat on class (and at least up to and through the mid levels they appear to be) Bards are in SERIOUS need of a melee or defensive upgrade.

Consider this, I've played two bards, one up to 50 (BEFORE all the nerfs), and one up to 27 (AFTER all the nerfs), and I've also played warriors, druids, rogues, rangers, wizards, enchanters, etc. etc. etc.

I've yet to play ANY class that can agro mobs out of a train chasing someone else by doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, other than that of the bard.

Seriously! In Cazic, Unrest, or Mistmoore, some of your more train prevelant zones in the game I can have my bard, sitting, not singing, barely in agro range of a passing train, and at least ONE of the mobs if not more from that train will veer off and start attacking the mob. These mobs will PASS BY a meditating caster, ignore the taunting warrior or ranger, and STILL attack the bard.

It's laughable that it happens this way, but it does...

Please fix this agro issue.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010306.../052807-6.html

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Lord_Elwyn
Station Member posted 01-30-2001 07:23 AM
>From what I'm hearing, bards, paladins and shadow knights are all 'defensive' hybrids. I'll add a suggestion to increase the defense caps of all three to the lists.
This to me seems a little silly. I really have no need for higher defence. I very rarely get attacked, and my damage output is so pathetic compared to the real melee classes that I don't think I could draw aggro even if I wanted to.
If you want to make bards more useful in combat, give them a low-capping double attack. I'm not asking for a 255 cap so I'll do as much damage as a warrior or ranger, but maybe a lower cap of 75 or 100 that'll just add 20-30% to my damage output. This could be a skill gained in the mid-high 50's to balance the declining 50+ bard damage output in comparison to other melee classes.

...

Elwyn
60 Bard

https://web.archive.org/web/20010306.../052807-4.html

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Ionas
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 10:52 PM

Bards Lullaby song, it is pretty much useless to me. I do not use it anymore because it has such a high amount of taunt when it is resisted (which is often) I can be in the middle of a crowd of XXX mob and sing this song and 3 of the 4 creatures will get mezzed maybe if I am lucky, so I continue singing and it seems that the ones that are mezzed get another saving throw when I pulse the song again, so the first one is attacking me that did not get mezzed, and by the time I get them all mezzed I am almost dead.....then a few seconds later they break again. This song is resisted way too much since it seems to be a suicide song when it is played.

Our charm song: Works great for what I use it for...saving my warrior when he is getting trashed. I charm one mob and attack the other...(or to just charm it and give him a small break because when it breaks it will leave him alone for a while) gets one creature off of him and we have assistance in the fight, but when the charm breaks, even though he is about 6 levels above the creature with his taunt skill maxed, he cannot taunt the MOB off me for at least 3 tries usually. Please lower the taunt on this song....and maybe make it last longer in dungeon settings. Just a wish there, but it seems that this song will get me killed more than it will help me.

...

Bards in general have too high a Taunt effect on things. When in a group our attacks and singing often aggro things on us so much that I am told to stop singing or back off on my attacking because the warrior types are having a hard time keeping things from attacking me. I do not like sitting in a corner not doing what I can to pull my weight in a melee as best I can, but it is so bad I often need to use slower weapons and often stop singing just to stay alive. There is a rumor that bards are SuperConducting High Powered MOB Magnets...and I would have to say it is true.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010207.../052807-3.html

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salsaccia
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 06:52 PM

I don't particularly mind the obscenely high taunt that my bard seems to be. Actually, it's kind of useful to know that the mobs are coming straight for me...it adds some predictability to the fight. We can strategize based on it. So, in summary...
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:10 AM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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RE: Newbie Armour for a Vah Shir bard By: Slipskin, Scholar
632 posts
Posted @ Tue, Nov 26th 8:44 AM 2002 Score: Decent[3.44]
One thing you will discover about bards is that they generate a lot of aggro - even worse than clerics. Since most bard songs are AoE that means you can be generating a lot of aggro from a whole lot of mobs at one time. Monks and rogues often find this problem since they tend to dish out more damage over time than a main tank class. Clerics have this problem since heals generate aggro, too. AC does reduce the amount of damage taken but HP allows you to take more damage. So, you want both.

STA does not generate enough HP compared to a straight HP buff item and STA items are hard to find. Yes, you want STA at 100 or a little over so you don't fatigue in a fight. But after that you get better return from HP buff items. Breath duration on a bard is irrelevant at level 14. You get an enduring breath song. I rarely have ever had to use zing song. Even then I twisted it in once or twice during a fight and a couple more times during downtime. I almost never have it memmed.

AGI doesn't improve your AC or damage avoidance enough to warrant putting a lot of investment in it unless you're a monk. Most seasoned rogues will tell you go for STR, AC, and HP. AGI is nice for raising defensive skills quickly but once they are capped the AGI doesn't do much.

DEX has the same problem except that it allows offensive abilities to improve faster. However, with bards, DEX also reduces your chance for missed notes.

STR is important since bards are a plate wearing class and secondary tanking class. Plate armor is heavy. STR increases your ATK rating which means more hits in melee and more damage delt to the mob.

CHA has recently been explained by SonyEQ on how that factors in - if the mez/lull fails a check is made on your CHA to see if the mob chooses to aggro you or not. High CHA reduces the chance of that happening. Check out the discussion boards on EQDiva.com for more info.

A note on bard aggro - you already know that healing generates aggro. Well Hymn of Restoration is a group regen spell (11pts per tick for me at level 25 with a Combine Mandolin). Now, 11 pts per tick is not a lot for just me. But in a full group fighting mobs that becomes 66pts per tick (6 members at 11/tick each). THAT will generate mucho aggro. Never mind Selo's Consonant Chain (slow/snare) and a couple of AoE DOT songs on top of that. Unlike those bards you grouped with I typically twist 3 songs while meleeing (I have a 60 bard friend as a tutor). If the tanks I am with do not taunt properly I am a dead kitty. Mez song keeps me alive a little longer but its hard to twist mezz since it breaks so easily. Try grouping in High Keep or Blackburrow a few times and you will see what I mean.

I grouped with a necro last nite and bumped around some gnolls in SK. I ended up tanking more than the pet did. It had trouble holding aggro with my song twists - Selo's Consonant Chain, Jonathan's Whistling Warsong, and Hymn of Restoration (the pet does not benefit from bard songs so I ran as if I was solo tanking). I used melee weapons instead of an instrument twist. No AoE songs since I did not want to draw adds. Worked well. Got a full yellow of experience in an hour. No deaths. Not even close. Did single and double pulls of yellow and red cons. During down time I twisted Hymn and Clarity. It was a great team.

Slipskin Ashenheart, 47 Rogue
Mewse, 25 Bard
Arcturos Redmane, 28 Monk


P.S. I forgot to mention that AC does not help against spells - only melee. When you get caught by that DD or DOT spell, after MR fails, the extra HP is the only thing that will help you.

Edited, Tue Nov 26 08:51:02 2002

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Author Thread: Agro songs
Sinfonian is not online. Last active: 11/6/2004 1:10:25 AM Sinfonian
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Agro songs
Posted: Dec 31 02 6:47 PM
I know I've read a post or two someplace on this or the old site about songs that increase agro, such as charm or mez, but are their other songs that increase agro. I am looking for something to pull off casters or simply avoid casters from being agro'd. I know the clerics of the world would LOVE if we of the many hps could take a few more hits than they of the few hps.

I know I should know the song list better but I am still working on it. Any help from you Maestros would be most appreciated.

Sinfonian

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Jarroll is not online. Last active: 11/5/2004 5:35:44 PM Jarroll
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Re: Agro songs
Posted: Dec 31 02 10:51 PM
Song of Shields (level 49) does a good job of getting agro. Its like casting a 40 point rune on every group-member every tick.

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Mystaviant is not online. Last active: 1/25/2004 3:29:59 PM Mystaviant
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Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 1 03 12:29 AM
Beside charm and mezz, the only other insta-aggro song i can think of is Denon's Desperate Dirge and also Brusco's Bombastic Bellow. Both deal an awful amount instantly, but if I remember right, one requires 800 mana, and the other is usuable once every 5 minutes or something. Mezz is a better option, and if you dont have a pet already, charm, especially if its below level 51, cause its GUARENTEED to make the caster lose all aggro, and you to gain it all, if thats what you want. Repeatedly mezzing while purposely meleeing to break it also works well.

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Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 1 03 11:12 AM
Shield of song... any upper level mana/hp song, lvl 51 slow
song does a bit. Best agro I've had so far was doing 1 regen
and a few Shield ticks. Got pretty good agro out of that
not
to mention stopped lots of damage... heh
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Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 2 03 7:22 PM
Highsun does a pretty good job of getting it off the caster *ahem*

I actually hear all about the agro from SoS, was even warned by bard buddy when I got it but half the time I swap the lute of howler into slot one and click it, once its cast I pop weapon back and twist the other 2 or 3 when we fight. Esp if we got a druid with shammy backup as healers or something, and I rarely do get the famed and feared SoS agro.

But I do keep Song of Dawn loaded in case I do, its pretty handy being all not-resistable, and if you talk to your MT ahead of time and ask him to sit down if the mob goes for you when the little shield appears on his screen it works REALLY well to get agro RIGHT off of you and back to him.

Serious, this combo works great if you are weak in the healer dept.

Gileas, who sings SoS a lot.
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Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 2 03 9:01 PM
I will agree, Song of Shield does an awesome job getting aggro when in a full group. If your trying to puill of a wizzie good luck to you though, some will nuke to soon and getting aggro from a 1k nuke can be somewhat troubling. My suggestion is to keep lvl 55 Bellow memmed if you think one of your casters is going to pull to much aggro. The 5 min recast isnt to nice and the high resists makes it a little iffy, but in that instant where they are getting the snot beat out of them it is worth a chance with an 8 second stun. As for reducing aggro for your group members, no luck there. Keep yourself hasted, keep low delay weapons if you are tanking and all should be well.
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Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 9 03 12:42 PM
Best way ive found to keep or get agro is to sing as many Dot/Debuff songs as you can.. if you pull its even better..

at 60 you can cast 30 slow.. 1 min dot.. than add 3 or 4 dots and twist those.. at 60 I could keep agro from a 60 warrior until he taunts or has his epic proc.. but you get agro back when you keep dotting.. But once that war epic procs again.. you think you might as well have been hasting the warrior.. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At 62 you get 45 slow which is a lot better agro than the 30 slow dot.. but still taunt becoms harder the longer the combat lasts.

Saving casters from agro is best done with charm.. having a way to lose charm fast is nice too.. Mosquito boots or hide or invis up.

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Author Thread: Generates Agro/Snares in 'Death Walk'
cujomatic is not online. Last active: 1/24/2005 9:54:31 AM cujomatic
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Generates Agro/Snares in 'Death Walk'
Posted: May 14 03 7:33 PM
This song is great (like the 20 song) for grabbing aggro for the bard (ie if a caster is with the group and pulling from a distance, and you want to grab aggro incoming).

The song snares when the critter goes into its 'Death Walk' at around 20% health.

This song, unlike the 20 AE slow song, DOES bust mez.
Currently in EQII Krescendo, 29 Dirge...Faydark/ Bhandade, 29 Cleric...Faydark

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frymd is not online. Last active: 1/17/2005 12:36:30 PM frymd
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Re: Aggro in Hard LDon-- First Loss
Posted: Sep 10 04 2:24 PM
Your songs create aggro right off the bat if your singing when a mob is pulled into camp. No matter whether they are buff, heal, slow or whatever songs. You mez song will have a high aggro effect on it too.

I suspect you may have been the lowest level of the group or close to it so I imagine that didn't help either. In addition, tanks at this level will have trouble keeping aggro as taunt hardly ever works.

When you got rezed, your low life will draw aggro as well.

Bottom line, until your groups get higher level you will draw aggro. You will at higher levels too, but it isn't as much of an issue. Just turn off attack and back out of the fray if you need to, the tank will regain aggro. And, your mez will give you lots of aggro. You don't get a memblurr component on it till later. If your mezzed mobs break mez they will beat on you. If you keep them all mezzed, make sure the tank does a sucessful taunt before breaking mez or you will be beaten on again.

Good luck though and keep up the grouping. It will make you a better bard.
Wizzy of the 65th Circle of Knowledge; Bard of the 60th Silly Song; Beasty of the 39th Soloing Level; Shadow Knight of the 28th Level of Evil; There is always one more imbecile than you figur

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Eaeamien is not online. Last active: 2/17/2005 2:52:43 PM Eaeamien
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Re: Agro for tanking purposes...
Posted: Jan 24 05 12:52 PM
Ok, so you really really want aggro, hunh? Well I found 2 ways to get it , that actually work !!!!! A

...

Method #2
Spam Shield of Songs
Lets say that you decide you want to be main tank for your group cause the MT has less HP/AC/Def AA's than you do. Well heres the fun part....Remember that old school song "Shield of Songs" ? Well this seems to be the only honest aggro song we have. Probably a bug/glitch but it works, so use it. You cant twist a bunch of crap and SoS and maintain aggro...You just SPAM sos, over & over & over. I thought someone was pulling my leg when they told me about this, but ive used it in MPG and PoP and it works surprisingly well.

Ok, good luck being a tank.....I just pray you have at least the PoP defensive AA's.
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Mose is not online. Last active: 4/8/2005 10:02:58 AM Mose
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Re: Agro for tanking purposes...
Posted: Jan 24 05 2:56 PM
Spam Shield of Songs agro doesn't work the way it used to...else i would be leading PoFire AE groups

however, the devs have looked at our chant agro bug and discovered its cause:

Bard Chant Aggo

♪ M o s e ♪
[Triton]
Povar

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archi...rds/24205.json

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When I'm explicitly TRYING to aggro a primary target (VS comes to mind), the songs I use are: This, 55 bellow and Charm. It works pretty well, even if none of them stick, since I believe MOBs get aggro from the potential effect, not the actual effect. I am usually the 2nd or 3rd to aggro VS, at which point I can slap on deftdance and keep him uselessly swinging at me while the tanks clobber him. My guild leaders don't know I do this, I have to sneak a rune onto me and do it behind their backs, since they are stuck in the "only riposte discipline people fight VS" mode, but we've never lost when I've done this, so I don't think I'm provably wrong. If someone has a BETTER 3-song aggro-the-primary-MOB songlist, I'd love to hear it.
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Old 03-24-2023, 12:20 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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2000/01/26  In EQVault , there was news that Gordon said on the forum that he was going to make Bard's Taunt weaker. Since Bard Song is a Party Member Buff, it seems to change the behavior of moving to the top of the Hate-List by saying "Buffing"... Well, I don't understand English well. It might be good news.

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Devamaru
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posted March 27, 2001 09:18 AM Profile for Devamaru Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Bards don't advance any faster or slower than anyone else. They ARE very group friendly, and that will certainly help you getting into groups, provided the group has an inkling of what bards can do. (Or hasn't grouped with a bad bard).
Once you get past 18, you can start to solo effectively as well using various techniques. (Instrument fighting at 18, fear-kiting at 26, charm-kiting at 27).

Managing aggro is one of the worries that bards must deal with. I want to make bumper stickers: Mobs hate bards! In truth, think of bard aggro as ranging from somewhere between cleric aggro (moderately bad) to enchanter aggro (awful).

As you make your choice, remember that bards are one of the most complicated classes to play in the game, much more complicated than the monks, warriors, or rogues you have also suggested. Bards are hard to play well, but for me, and most of us here, the difficulty is one of the enjoyable things. We like challenges. If you like challenges too, the challenge to be flexible and adaptable, to fill different roles and different times, to play support songs sometimes instead of meleeing, to melee sometimes instead of hanging back, then consider a bard.

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posted March 28, 2001 09:12 AM Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Bards are 'melee' in a rater pitiful sense. After 40 against a 45+ monster you lose your awesome melee powers!Or, perhaps your 2 rounds(maybe 1) of attack.
Crystalline short sword and wurm tendon whip and you're still rather pathetic! Dealing with aggro can be a tricky one... The real bonuses a bard provides are regens, slows, hastes... And the latter 2 are singing only.

While you are a semi-melee class; you are an incompetent tank to the fullest. A monk is a melee class, as is a rogue. Bard tanking is put a few notches below rogue, then take away all of their defensive abilities.

Aggro. Control it. Most people think you're a tank up until level 35. It even pisses em off to see you selo away, half bubble of life with three red cons who can kill you in a half second chasing after you. Regen is a continual aggro. Anything else is fine. If you break and put back on a debuff, you will aggro even more!

Hastes/slows are really useful. You should be using them. Just never, ever tank without a cleric- a good cleric. I wouldn't rely on a druid or shaman as they typically are whiny healers. And don't forget- your tanks should be meleeing. You're more of a boombox with weapons.
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Dilbis
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posted March 28, 2001 10:44 AM Profile for Dilbis Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
What Carlota said about bards being good pullers is very true, especially in outdoor zones. I always get weird responses to the first time someone is grouped with me and I say, "bad pull, splitting". At 23rd level, a bard gets Selo's Consonant Chain, and this song was build for splitting.
While moving away from the pull, chain the mobs that you do NOT want. The only ones that will be able to keep up are the ones that you do want (well, not keep up, but you can tease them into chasing you). The ones you do not want will just fall out of the aggro radius. Track back to your group on a circular route, leaving the unwanted mobs standing in the middle of no where.

Dinias also mentioned controlling aggro. Outdoors, I say go over to the dark side. Use no self control at all, generate maximum aggro and kite with a melee partner(s). A monk that is my level can not generate enough aggro to turn a mob that I am kiting with chains (slows both movement and attack, tremendous taunt factor), Tuyen's Chant of Flames (fire based damage over time, fire resist debuff, huge taunt), and Tuyen's Chant of Frost (cold based dot, cold resist debuff, huge taunt). Fufil's Curtailing Chant can be subtituted at lower levels for one of the chants, or if the mob is highly resistant to fire or cold.

As to Antok's original question, are bards over powered, my answer is well...it depends...

Soloing for bards at high levels is pretty much restricted to outdoor zones. Without root or the melee skills to go toe to toe, kiting becomes essential. There are many different ways of solo kiting, some bards charm kite like mad men and some fear kite. I, however, am a firm believer in a good drum.

One thing about soloing is that bards are not quick kill artists. We grind them down slowly and wear the mobs out. The good thing about this is not the killing time, it is the down time. There is NO down time on a well kited mob. The kill rate is comparable or maybe slightly better than a druid from kill to kill counting their med time.

As a bard, I can also solo high blues that just have too many hit points for a solo caster to tackle (and a solo melee would not even think about). Last night in Burning Woods, I killed Gylton and Az (named wurms that drop wurmslayer quest scales) almost back to back.

Indoors, things change. Conventional fighting styles take over, groups are needed. Bards have several songs which make them highly desired in groups. Examples include all of the haste lines, all of the slow mob attack rate lines, damage control such as March of the Wee or Shield of Song, downtime reduction songs such as health/mana regen songs, and the Jig of Vigor is still nice in a fast pulling group, no need to have a caster wasting mana on that.

If the group needs crowd control, do not be afraid to use Crission's Pixie Strike or charm to control the mobs. Many bards whine about the high resists of the songs, but check this out. Even as a bard, I can tank a mob when it is only hitting me one out of four ticks. Playing Hymn and Shield of song in the non-mezzing ticks mean that I can keep this mob out of the fight almost indefinitely, while REDUCING the damage that the tank takes.

Above all, be creative. Do not get hung up on how many flashing icons your group has. Some of the best twist combinations do not buff the party at all, and some only put up one buff. Please, experiment. Ask several (not just one, some are twinks set up for guild raids, power leveled the entire way) higher level bards for pointers. There are a few songs which are so pathetic that I would never mem them, but most have a purpose for groups, soloing, utility or travel.

Dilbis Xll <Balefire Clan>
53rd Human Bard
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Tinolan
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posted March 29, 2001 08:38 AM Profile for Tinolan Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
That thinking is backwards. The better you do it, the more your enemy hates you. The more effective something is, especially things like healing, the more hate it causes. My hymn regens 20/tick with my lute (wish I had a better lute). If it's just me and one other person, that's 40/tick total, and doesn't cause much aggro. In a full group though, it's 120/tick and causesa LOT of aggro.
At lvl 43, I successfully kited those Kromrif Guardsmen outside Kael around. Obviously, they conned red to me. They also have some ridiculously high number of hit points. 15-20k or so. I can't imagine any other class doing that successfully.

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Posted @ Tue, Aug 28th 11:55 AM2001 | IP: Logged | Reply... Reply to this
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Ok, it depends on how you like to play, if you like to group and use weapons, go with AC and strength gear. If you like to group and use instruments, go with AC and Dex gear. Solo, probably just AC and str for now. In groups, you are going to be getting hit quite a bit while you are learning what songs aggro you the most, so it's a good idea to get your AC as high as you can reasonably afford (bronze or banded at L. 12) before worrying about your other stats.

...

Bards can be amazingly effective naked with only their instruments and weapons, in a group. However, for charming and mezzing purposes, it's best to go ahead and have the gear =)

Thunderous Silenc
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Zelandakh is online. Last active: 9/14/2004 3:40:22 AM Zelandakh
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Re: confused...
Posted: Jul 20 04 7:30 PM
Many years ago when I was a lowbie bard I actually tanked rather alot. I was not twinked at all, I just concentrated almost exclusively on AC in my equipment. By level 45 (Kunark-era) I was one of the highest AC bards on my server, because most bards concentrated on cha and/or HP. The point was that I could quite happily hold aggro and taking the blows was easy with a good cleric behind me.

Now move on a little and our song aggro was drastically reduced. This was a good thing for bards, but it did change the class somewhat. Low level groups still expect the bard to tank (we wear plate after all) and do not understand the finer workings of song taunt. Aggro is a definite issue here.

Myself I am genuinely not fussed with taunt at the higher end of the game. We do have ways to hold aggro here if we really want to, from chain chanting to simply acquiring a +hate proccing weapon. I've tanked enough myself, and heard enough tales of bard's tanking raid bosses, to know this is a minor thing.

However, as you can tell from this post it is a long time since I was a low-level bard. Alot of my thoughts of this side of the game come from my partner who I persuaded to level up a bard recently. And yes she was asked to tank in several groups.

So I would like to ask Klappers at this point what he thinks are the big issues for low level bards right now. Not only has he seen this side of the game more recently than me, he also has contact with a large number of low level bards through Molto Expressivo. What sort of ideas would you like to see thrown out to replace jig as our level 3 song?

Smiley Zel Smiley
A song is worth a thousand pictures.
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Old 03-26-2023, 05:03 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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Indication that bard songs had their aggro reduced yet again, post-Velious, as an answer to complaints previously highlighted.

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Eladuel is not online. Last active: 1/18/2005 1:51:19 PM Eladuel
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Re: Keeping aggro...
Posted: May 18 04 1:36 AM
Bards have a wierd code where the things we do cause agro just at a reduced rate, I figure it was to fix the problems with bards dying to fast when twisting. The problem with this is it also affects our procs so weopons that proc stun and slow won't be nearly effective if another class were using. Other then using the generic chants, charms, and sitting which will create a bit of agro not sure if it will be enough to say keep a BoT giant on you when a healer is ch'ing the only other path I know of is to get a weopon that procs a set ammount of hate like enraging blow aka BoC... so start saving your pennies or find a guild who is still willing to do AoW for a bard LOL
Below, more comments to support that songs were known to cause significant aggro, some more than others such as shield of song.

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Topic: What class dies the least/most?
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Elasto
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Enchanters and bards definitely top.
Monks usually at the bottom if solo, but if pulling can often sacrifice themselves trying to split and not letting anyone heal them.

Necros at the bottom solo, but in a group die as much as any caster.

Druids dont often die outside with snare and sow.

Shaman are very hardy, since they have good ac, a pet to share tanking and fight increasingly slowed mobs as they level.

Worth noting that although clerics come somewhere in the middle, once they hit 49 they never die without getting a res

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Never Wiser
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Hmm.. I'd have to agree with chanters, they get smoked fast. FD classes easily die the least too.
I have a 50 bard and to tell ya the truth, I find it hard to believe a bard dies easy. There's so many ways to get away, it's crazy.. Of course, I do die alot, but that's because I am always testing stuff, biting off more than I can chew, etc. hehehe

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New Message RE:Why are Bards so cool? (modified 0 times) Irony
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Hehe, reading the thread I notice that there are way too many people who don't exactly know what they're talking about.
Let's face it, bards are masters at nothing except versatility. While we can't heal as good as clerics, we heal better than warriors. While we can't buff as good as shamans, we buff much better than wizards. While we can't melee as good as monks, we melee much better than magicians. While we can't mez as good as chanters, we mez much better than SKs, while others have to med, we can continue kiting/charming/mezzing/healing/buffing and such. If you have a bard in your group, there will hardly be any situation that you can't handle. Bards have quite a few skills that most other classes lack: Safe Fall (absolutely necessary to avoid being killed by falling at high speed), Instill doubt (kinda gimmick, not too helpful but looks nice), Pick Lock (yes, we can pick some locks). You're in a dungeon and need to evac but the mobs keep hitting the dr00id/wizzy? AE fear will buy them the time necessary to cast (keep that memorized all the time, it's a lifesaver). Group invis, group water breathing, group protection (all resists can be addressed), group healing, group travel speed, group haste (30% haste at lvl 50 which is 10% more than the FBSS) and all that at *NO* mana cost. Not to mention the always-welcome chorus of clarity (and the upgrade song). BTW, the clarity songs (version one and two) beat the enchanter spells by a point or two. Oh, very handy: Group divine aura at level 60 (or 59?).
Yes, we can wield 2 weapons but since we have considerably low hp and are relatively weak, our main weapons are our instruments (try twisting the 2 chant songs (fire and cold) and fufil's with a drum on a mob, I guarantee you can taunt it off 3 warriors. Oh yes, we can snare, we have group damage shields...
You get the point: While we're not best at anything, we can do everything a bit. I have a 48 necro and a 47 bard (and 6 other chars below lvl 30). And the most noticeable difference between them all is: No class is as much fun to play as the bard.
I just wished, people knew more about bards. When I get into a group and tell them how bards handle things, they are usually amazed ('I didn't know bards could do THAT' or 'Weee...nifty song, great idea to twist it with that other song').
Just my 2cp....
Irony Truenote
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Aug 31, 2000 05:14:50 A.M.
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New Message RE:Why are Bards so cool? (modified 0 times) Sanctumquestris
Profile
An evolution of Bard appreciation:
lvls 1-5: Thought they were strange looking Elvis-like people playing miniture guitars.

lvls 5-15: Disliked bards because they always got beat up, did little damage, and songs didnt do much for me.

lvls 15-25: hmm, cant remember seeing any bards...

lvls 25-30: high level bard helps me get deep inside a dungeon for a somewhat rare drop with an invis and levitate song, hmm well maybe bards arent so bad...

lvls 31-34: Noticed bards have a mana regen song... very nice, less of a need for the sought after ench as a group member. (XYZ says bard looking for group). you say to your group: "get the bard"

lvl 35: watched a bard not much higher than me solo hill giants in lake rath by some combination of kiting and charming. Wow, bards are cool !!!

lvl 36: made a bard

Nov 26, 2000 03:26:43 A.M.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010628...m=5857&start=0

01:50:50 Jun 28, 2001

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This Weapon isn't as good as it seems By: Anonymous
Posted @ Fri, May 11th 8:59 PM Score: Default[2.00]
I've been playing my lvl 54 bard for a long time and if you are playing your bard well, this weapon will most likely get you killed. The reason is I generate a metric f*ckload of hate as it is. When I'm playing 4 songs in a group, mobs are pissed off at me enough as it is, with this weapon it would take a VERY uber war to taunt it off of me be for I get creamed. This weapon is great for all the bards out there that don't know how to twist songs very well, but if you are one of those bards and you are going to any of the very dangerous parts of Norrath, I pity your group.
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RE: This Weapon isn't as good as it seems By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, May 29th 12:07 PM Score: Default[2.00]
I'm a level 55 bard, can do crowd control (to an extent of replacing an enchanter), can twist 4 songs at any given time, have my epic that procs often...and i DONT generate a lot of aggro. I think you need to learn a bit about aggro management...
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RE: This Weapon isn't as good as it seems By: Zelandakh,
9 posts
Posted @ Wed, May 16th 6:06 PM Score: Decent[3.00]
Any good bard should have experimented enough to know how to control their aggro expertly, especially by their 50s. If you were using this in conjunction with your epic and had aggro problems you'd have to consider your twist carefully, choosing lower aggro songs where appropriate and perhaps using song of dawn from time to time. Seriously though, if you are doing your job and the war is doing theirs you shouldn't have a real problem unless there's something distinctly wrong.

(-: Zel :-)
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RE: This Weapon isn't as good as it seems By: Anonymous
Posted @ Mon, May 14th 8:52 PM Score: Default[2.00]
What are you singing, shield of song? only way I can draw mobs off the tanks is with that or DoTs... our regens and buffs increase in power linearly vs. melee damage which increases quadratically (which means we taunt lots with them at low levels but tanks outtaunt them with damage alone at high levels). With this weapon I could finally do more melee damage than a shammy with an epic!

https://web.archive.org/web/20031205...html?item=4896

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explaination for the non bards Reply...
Posted @ Tue, Jul 24th 9:54 AM 2001
By: Kollins
Sage
198 posts
Score: Good [3.77]
-you give up two weapons to equip an instrument, those two weapons may have + stats like AC or dex or agi or something.
-store bought lute weighs either 1.0 or 0.1, store bought mandolin weighs 0.0, THIS weighs 5.0 making it one of the heaviest string instruments in the game.
-most string based songs worth memorizing have a high taunt value, niv's and hymm alone do over 60hp/tick of regen, that nets a combined taunt of 360hp every 6 seconds if you are in a full group not to mention the nuke absorption or str buff of niv's adds more taunt.
-one of the coolest bard songs I've used is string based and has an INSANE taunt factor (I'm not telling, find a 50+ bard worth their salt and ask them; besides wo be me for inciting a nerf) and if you find a reason to use it you need ALL the AC you can get considering I was out taunting a wizard chain casting AEs with C2 up, an enchanter chain casting grav flux and the cleric keeping me alive through the ordeal.

So I'd gladly take the AC and the HP and although I may complain about lugging a 5.0 stone instrument around I could definitly live with it.

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1 Replies
RE: explaination for the non bards Reply...
Posted @ Wed, Mar 27th 2:33 AM 2002
By: StefenWavedreamer
3 posts
Score: Default [1.55]
A bard would want to taunt why? LOL, ask a level 50+ bard why they would want to take the punches instead of a warrior. We may be melee, but we aren't tanks.

StefenWavedreamer
Minstrel of RodcetNife
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1 Replies
RE: explaination for the non bards Reply...
Posted @ Thu, Jul 18th 8:22 AM 2002
By: ModarakModersack
Scholar
78 posts
Score: Good [3.50]
Actually, he did not say anywhere that bards *want* to outtaunt a warrior. He merely states that the string based songs worth playing (Nivs, SoS, Cantata ..) have huge taunt potential, especially with a good instrument.
You may not want to get agro off a tank (if you have any), but how about taking mobs off your chanter/cleric/wizard?

Please don't assume what a 50+ bard might want and cease LOLing at people giving good input.


Edited, Thu Jul 18 08:36:53 2002


[55 Ministrel] Modarak Modersack (Wood Elf)
[65 Arch Lich] Knochi Blutwurst (Iksar)
Kael Drakkal
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1 Replies
RE: explaination for the non bards Reply...
Posted @ Sun, Feb 2nd 9:54 AM 2003
By: Recursion
35 posts
Score: Decent [2.91]
He's talking about shield of songs. Its a group rune spell. If you chain cast it as fast as possible, its high aggro and while it won't turn you into a true tank, will make you much better at taking damage.

I guess if your tank went down and you were the only melee type left, this strategy could work, though normally I would just mezz and heal.
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0 Replies
AC for Lute is important for SoS Reply...
Posted @ Sat, May 5th 4:28 AM 2001
By: Anonymous
Score: Default [2.00]
I have found that when chain playing sheild of song for whatever reason.. this is a huge taunt.. and since SoS is based of the lute this helps alot if ur trying to protect your group this way
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RE: Lvl 50?!? Reply...
Posted @ Wed, Mar 21st 10:29 AM 2001
By: Palarran
Guru
118 posts
Score: Decent [3.30]
Many bard songs seem to have a high taunt, especially ones related to crowd control.
You'd better be able to take a beating until things can be taunted off you, even if you don't have to absorb hits continuously like a tank would...
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  #5  
Old 03-26-2023, 06:46 PM
Kirdan Kirdan is offline
Sarnak


Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 365
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Not disagreeing with your findings, but the fact that runes aren't producing a lot of agro is simply a choice that devs here made in order to nerf Bladestopper-type items. I wholeheartedly agree that rune agro needs to be reverted though. It's silly that they put in an unclassic nerf aimed at a line of clicky items and ended up buffing enchanters as a result.
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  #6  
Old 03-27-2023, 03:31 AM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirdan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Not disagreeing with your findings, but the fact that runes aren't producing a lot of agro is simply a choice that devs here made in order to nerf Bladestopper-type items. I wholeheartedly agree that rune agro needs to be reverted though. It's silly that they put in an unclassic nerf aimed at a line of clicky items and ended up buffing enchanters as a result.
Understood. SoS got lumped in with the rest mostly because the comments support the idea that aggro varied from song to song, at least until much later when bard aggro from songs/procs was reduced to the same low amount. Still looking for an exact date for when that happened, but it appears to be well beyond of the classic timeline.


https://web.archive.org/web/20030930...untingLevel=30

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Kyepez (5/25/01) Infected Paw is a GREAT place for bards to level if you are working with a smart group. If you get a stupid group who don't understand the amount of sheer HATE that bards drum up, then Paw is bard deadly. The loot here is decent, although as always you can expect either ninja looters, or accountants. I have been here for about 8 levels off and on

Bards are VERY rare in this zone, as most bards are questing for lambent at this time. This can work to your advantage, and I have never had trouble getting into a group (what bard really does? . . . mana song plz. . . .. ) A of E songs are a no no here, and i would not suggest soloing.

The ONE place that is absolutely safe to solo and use A of E is the first room which spawns a leth vas and leth val. One of which will be blue to you , the other green. A of E twist will kill them quick and you get xp. Spawn of about 10 minutes, so not a great way for xp.

Primary role for the bard is crowd control ( when pulling multiple mobs which happens often) I use Solons, and Pixie. Lullaby is just a great way to die. Gnolls have a high resist on lullaby.

There are also caster gnolls who work in tandem with other gnolls. Tesch is a Warrior. Lleth is a Thief (backstab). Nisch is a Healer ( I hate npc clerics), Rosch is a caster. The Rosch is you MAIN enemy as a bard. You will be twisting songs and suddenly get hit for 200+damage as a result of the immediate hate build up. Keep Pixie memmed at all times.

Songs I keep memmed in gem order. jax, heal, anthem, Selo's chain, mana song :P, Solon siren, Pixie, Fufil's for twisting fun

Hope this helps enjoy!!!

Kyepez
32Bard of Morell Thule

Kyepez plays a little Manilow

Your mind clears
Your mind clears
your mind clears
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Wayoff (7/10/01) I agree that charm kiting rocks here.
...few things i have found.

focus mainly on mobs other than tigers and rhinos..tigers and rhinos usually can outrun you without your drum..and more importantly..do not run away at low health.

as we all know charm is a huge taunt.
so formally charmed pet continue to chase us even if we have charmed another mob, and have that new pet smacking your former pet.

one way to avoid this here is to charm the sarnacks, cockatrice, and succulents. These mobs all run away at low health.

What these means to us is this..if your pet is losing the fight and gets really low on health, when charm breaks it will not run after you..but it will run away ... simply target your former pets target and send it after your fleeing old pet.

https://web.archive.org/web/20031020...gs.asp?song=34

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Excellent magic debuffer - 5/10/01 2:14:01 PM
~ Belark Songstrider
A good song when used in conjunction with other magic based spells and songs, especially at higher levels. The damage and magic resistance increase significantly with level.

At level 51, with a Nostrolo's Tambourine, this song reduces magic resistance by 30. (Without tambourine, it's 14.) This is even more effective than a spell like Malise at reducing magic resistance, and can really help you stick other songs. It can also really help other classes stick their debuffs, such as the Shaman's Drowsy line.

For a pure damage twist, I use my drum and lead with this song until it sticks. Next, switch to lute and sing (48) Selo's Chords of Cessation. If it doesn't stick, don't worry just continue on. Finish up with your horn and (18) Denon's Disruptive Discord. Then get out the drum again and get (30) Fufil's Curtailing Chant back on the target before it wears off again. (Using Fufil's is the real key here as the magic debuff almost guarantees that the other two songs will stick.)

This twist does about 1400 damage per minute to a single target, and about 1000 per minute to any others in the area. This is even more damage than a warrior or monk of the same level. Unfortunately it's also a LOT more taunt, meaning you get beat up on and have your songs interrupted, thus reducing this number. But even so, if you are only concerned with damage per second, this is a good way to go.

The other oft-touted use of this song is when kiting, but that's best left for emergencies. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

-Belark Songstrider, 51st Minstrel of Drinal

https://web.archive.org/web/20010414...des/guide1.asp

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Saturday, April 14, 2001 2 bards drumming in a duet online
Home > Guides > Sensi's Guide to Songweaving

Sensi Jadeleaf's Guide to Songweaving
(reprinted with permission)
- Sensi Jadeleaf, the bardic legend now retired

Conclusion
So what do bards do with this broad range of skills? Anything that is needed. If your group is short on tanks, wade in there with the weapons and the heavy taunt songs like Chain. No enchanter? Make crowd control your duty. Snare if you donÂ’t have a druid or ranger around, and do some DoT if youÂ’re caster light. Lots of tanks in the party, make sure you keep those attack speed, strength and stamina songs in there. Change your songs as the combat changes, donÂ’t just stick with the same 3 songs you started with. While your party might not be aware of what youÂ’re doing when youÂ’re there, theyÂ’ll sure be aware of you when youÂ’re gone. I try to play the jack of all trades thing up as much as I can, as itÂ’s our strength, both in combat and role-play. I learn as many languages as I can, I try to use blunt, piercing and slashing weapons.

Being a bard is more fun than I ever thought it could be, but itÂ’s not a class for everyone. I stress all those who want to play them, stick with it for awhile and begin to get a taste of the different things we can do. At very least, it will give you an appreciation for what that bard in the corner of the room is doing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010414...ides/charm.asp

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Saturday, April 14, 2001 4 bards singing in a quartet online
Home > Guides > The Charming Bard

The Charming Bard

Charming a mob
If you have been an enchanter or druid in a previous life, our charm songs are similar to their Charm spells, where you "recruit" the help of a nearby mob. The sole difference is that our charm song only lasts less than 15 seconds (typically 12 seconds), rather than 8 minutes. During this time, you can turn a mob into your pet who is at your beck and call. Sic him onto his friends and watch the fun. When the charm breaks, the pet will be very aggro on you, so be sure to be prepared on what to do next. After reading this charm guide, you will have a pretty good idea what you should do next.

...

Lastly, if you're in a group and a group member is getting aggroed on, charm the mob, its a very powerful way to taunt the mob off when all else fails. It has saved the life of many of my past group members. For this reason, I often have charmed mem even with a chanter in the party... Its that powerful. Thus, charm is one of the best songs a bard can have. So read on, and turn yourself into a Charming Bard...

https://web.archive.org/web/20020102...picID=46.topic

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Spiritous
Musician
Posts: 3
(4/10/01 8:43:05 am)
Reply thanks
My bard just got lv23 yesterday so I had a couple hours to try it out. I'm actually glad I was wrong about it being AE, those yellow/red adds really hurt when they aggro and slow taunts them every time.

I tried stacking Largo and Chain with Attacker's Misses on in chat window. There was no noticable difference between the two or when both were stacked on the opponent. Also, I'm used to my lv53 shaman slows so even normal Chain/Largo Attack Speed Debuff seems relatively insignificant. But the AC debuff on Largo does noticably help me hit.

Question now is, since songs are already fighting for the 8 spaces on line-up, which one to keep mem'd.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010718...picID=38.topic

Quote:
Hoegaarden
Musician
Posts: 10
(3/27/01 11:25:59 am)
Reply
Re: Kelin's Lament (8) vs. Kellin's Lullaby (15)
If you'd have to pull, I'd go for Lambent first. You can lull those dervs, so they wont come after you when you pull. Lull as many as possible and pull one with bellows, not direct contact. Lull decreases the aggro range, so it's best to keep as far away from the mobs as possible.

When you have pulled, check how many have followed you. There will be probably more than one [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now is the time to go over to Lullaby and mez them. Make sure to tell your group to use assist, some people can really mess up.

Another important is that you do not sing the songs, always use your lute. They will already be resisted like hell and your lute could come in handy there.

Now for your questions:
- If Lambent breaks, mobs wont come after you. They will aggro you if they manage to resist it. (ouch)

-If Lullaby breaks mobs will very often aggro you. Tell the healer to keep a special eye on you and hope you can get their heads nodding again.

-The pull method is bellows, like I described above

Hoegaarden White Ale
Half Elven Bard of the 23rd song
Proud member of Caer Cadarn
Vazaelle server


"How can I be so thirsty when I drank so much last night?"

https://web.archive.org/web/20020102...opicID=4.topic

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Evaengelic
Strolling Minstrel
Posts: 2
(8/17/01 7:11:58 pm)
Reply Re: What type of Bard are you?
Well considering that my Music outdamages my Best weapons (ok so Im not uber twinked with a Partisan & stuff) by like 3 : 1, I only use Weapons if there is absolutely NO Tank.

I prefer using Instruments even though I can easily out-Aggro a SK or Paladin, but with at least ONE warrior I'm ok. Heck As Ive hit level 48+ Ive had groups with no cleric and im doing enough regen with my LUTE (Cantata & NIvs twist) we didnt NEED a cleric.

So absolutely I consider myself a Instrument bard (but I can melee if I must, but just not very well)

Hugs & Kisses,

Eva

https://web.archive.org/web/20020105...opicID=2.topic

Quote:
eqdiva
Diva
Posts: 118
(2/27/01 12:22:09 pm)
Reply
Re: Stop Telling Me What To Play!!!
Yeah, I wish sometimes I could tell the cleric to heal me, or the enchanter to do their job... Like the time I was grouped with a cleric in The Overthere who at the same time was fighting in Lower Guk with another character! After he let someone die, I think our group disbanded and called it a night.

I haven't been in a group for a long time where someone ordered me what to play. I think they're content with me tanking and buffing/debuffing during battle, and then playing mana song between pulls if I'm not the puller. I'm an active bard, they can see me tanking, doing crowd control, pulling, snaring, etc...

But if someone in the group seems to tell me to play this or that, and I already feel I am doing my best job, I tell them that I feel I am playing the right songs at the right time. If they still don't get it, I go and find a new group. Usually the rest of the group tries to follow me into my new group... hehe...

I think you are with people who only know your current 32 song, but soon, you'll be with more educated people (hopefully). Right now I am hearing more and more shouts for "Looking for bard for our group!" mixed in with the "looking for healer or enchanter!" And everytime I join a new group, everyone says "I love bards."

You are just starting to reach the point where people will start respecting you. So hang in there, and it will get easier...
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CalderTalespinner
Strolling Minstrel
Posts: 2
(3/14/01 10:56:41 am)
Reply Re: Stop Telling Me What To Play!!!
I generally agree with what has been said here. I also don't terribly enjoy people telling me what to play...I tend to see how the group works together then tailor what I twist to cater to the groups needs. I'm also usually the one who jumps in in an attempt to taunt a mob off the caster that just nuked the crap out of it. I generally ignore the requests for one song and one song only. It's insulting (at least to me) that someone else feels that I should be their personal mana battery or regenerator.

I do pride myself on my support role, knowing full well that my presence in a group can be the difference between that group's survival or demise.

One thing I'm not shy to ask for is a heal when I see that little red bar getting smaller and smaller.

Calder Talespinner
Bard of the 26th Psalm
Defenders of Valour
Ayonae Ro
The artist is nothing without the gift, but the gift is nothing without work." - Emile Zola
Quote:
elandakh
Performer
Posts: 16
(4/5/01 6:29:26 pm)
Reply Re: Stop Telling Me What (Not) To Play!!!
Hmmmm, I guess I'm somewhat different to most of you. When I play an alt & a bard joins the grp the 1st thing I do is turn songs on and work out the twist(s) they're using. If they're not twisting even after a reasonable time to setup I say 'wot RU twisting?' & proceed from there.
If they're using a completely useless song (say elemental rhythms at aviak kfc) I'll make some comment - chances are they setup incorrectly.
If they're using an ae twist while I'm on my enc I'll issue a warning to never use ae dmg songs with a chanter in grp without giving warning & discuss how we're going to do crowd control (bard ae tanking often works better than mez/charm).
Finally, gain on my chanter if I'm hunting giant-class mobs I'll usually ask the bard if they want to charm the 1st add; in low-mid levels bard charm works more effectively than enchanters in most instances.
IMHO any bard should be looking to learn from others...there's so many options & so many ways of playing that I'll never feel satisfied that I have every situation worked out 100%.

(-: Zel :-)

https://web.archive.org/web/20010617...picID=73.topic

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Tenille
One Hit Wonder
Posts: 1
(5/10/01 9:42:52 am)
Reply My song lineup...
Here's the song lineup I use at lvl 57 (if you care)... don't know if this might help you or not - maybe someone has ideas for me =)

Hotkeys:
--------
1.) Verses of Victory
2.) Selo's Consonant Chain
3.) Cantana of Replenishment
4.) Song of Twilight
5.) Niv's Melody of Preservation
6.) Brusco's Bombastic Bellow
7.) Kelin's Lugubrious Lament
8.) Solon's Bewitching Bravura

...

2.) Snare is a great thing to have, even with a snarer in the group. Occasionally I will swap this for Largo's Melodic Binding when there is a reliable snarer in the group due to it's great AC reduction and ability to keep things off the chanter =) Sometimes when fighting lower level stuff I will use lvl 51 Largo's Absonant Binding - which has better effects than Consonant Chain, but seems to have a higher resist rate as well. I think that Consonant Chain is the most reliable snare song, and in a situation where stuff must be snared - I always have this memorized.
Quote:
Tenille
Strolling Minstrel
Posts: 2
(5/10/01 3:23:31 pm)
Reply Re: My song lineup...
Selo's Assonant Strane - I have experimented with this song - and while it works better for keeping mobs off the enchanter (higher taunt than Melodic Binding it seems) - it's not very useful for snaring because the range is so short. If you miss a tick with it, or it is resisted at the wrong time and the mob has SoW on - you are gonna have a runner.

In situations where I need a snare I use either of the single target ones as opposed to the AE assonant strane.

In situations where I am the slower, I either go with lvl 20 Melodic Binding or lvl 51 Absonant Binding. Both have their benefits. 51 has better overall effects. If I'm having problems with a caster being hit a lot by mobs after mez breaks or whatnot - I will use the lvl 20 song. If I'm just looking to slow a mob (and the snare is nice as well), I will use the lvl 51 song. 51 does have a higher taunt, though, and if you have a tank who is lower lvl (or just can't taunt off you), I have much better luck with lvl 20 song.

Occlusion of Sound - I can't sing the praises of this song enough. It's amazing. The only drawback is the instrument requirement (but I will have my epic soon hopefully, so that won't be an issue). But the debuff is unresistable. Unfortunately, due to the instrument requirement, it usually rules out melee for me... Fortunately, I find that it's really only useful against large mobs which require a large number of people in the first place - so my melee wouldn't matter much one way or the other.

In a situation where I would use Occulsion, I will generally twist Occlusion, Replenishment and VoV (swapping instruments of course). Occlusion has a nice long range as well - so it lets me park next to my cleric and keep pumping mana at full strength while landing the debuff on the mob as well.

Usually in a fight where I'm using Occlusion, guildchat is full of "OMG I nuked for full DMG!" from druids and mages. Malo line seems to land very consistently on mobs previously untouchable by the lower lvl versions of this. Of course, there is stuff that you just can't debuff (except with this song, Tash line and Lvl 60 shaman/mage debuffs), but the results are *VERY* noticeable otherwise.

I guess you just have to weigh how much you are worth doing a certain thing in a certain situation. I like the fact that instead of doing my trivial melee damage in a huge fight against Treah Greenroot, I can hang next to my cleric singing mana and occlusion and VoV (which has a pretty decent range as well) and when the mob drops my cleric is FM.
Tenille Barakus
57 Troubador
Mith Marr

https://web.archive.org/web/20010617...picID=65.topic

Quote:
Valmi
Musician
Posts: 3
(5/9/01 4:51:14 am)
Reply
Re: Full group.. Wich songs to play..?
29-32, 4 tanks, and a Druid? Presuming you have halfway decent charisma...
Have the druid focus on healing. Nothing else, unless needed in a tight spot. You Chain incoming mobs, twist Anthem and Chant o Battle using drum only. Cycle in Jig and Chains. That will add HUGE amounts of STR/DEX/STA + Haste, and leave the Druid's mana for healing. What you'll do for 4 tanks with that drum far outweighs what you can do tanking. On multiple pulls, you've got Charm and Pixie Strike (Mez). When doing crowd control, don't sweat your regular twists. If charming, I'll activate maybe one other song (haste usually); and keep recharming/mezzing. When mezzing 2-3 mobs, you won't have time for other twists. A crude stein (not expensive) would be easy to swap out with drum in those cases and it'd add +15 Charisma. Personally, I feel that the addition of a 20th level Breeze song makes playing Hymn worthless in downtime. I learned after 32 that full time manasong is stronger than a twisted manasong; give the real healers the mana to do their job. However, with 4 tanks, your case may be unique. Experiment with both, since it's a regular group, and see what works best. By that level, I'd pretty much ditched all my area stuff. Playing Chords or Denons at that level will get you swarmed, and eat up the Druid's mana trying to save your weenie bard butt. Don't even get me started on Largo's and Lullaby. Well used Pixie Strikes will be better anyway. Watch your aggro, and have the tanks cycle back if they get over aggroed. With 4, they should be taking turns getting pounded. The job of a Bard is to reduce the party's downtime. To do that you must spread out & conserve Damage and Mana. Reduce your own aggro: if you're getting jumped up front, try NOT singing when the mobs are pulled. Wait until the fight gets underway. Experiment, but focus on what reduces the group's downtime over what cool stuff you can do!
Valmi Silversong
48th Bard on Tunare

https://web.archive.org/web/20010617...picID=83.topic

Quote:
Kyllnarushi
Rockstar
Posts: 213
(5/16/01 10:53:04 am)
Reply Selos' Chords of Cessation
Anyone really use this song?

To me, it seems to be one of those songs that kinda just says....

Hey Cleric...Rezz me.
Quote:
Flicx Stardrifter
Performer
Posts: 16
(5/17/01 4:49:24 am)
Reply
Community Supporter

Re: Selos' Chords of Cessation
It's a lvl 48 song. It's one of the better songs bards get as well. Don't sing it when there are enchanters about, coz it will interrupt mez. Infact try not to think of it as an AoE song.. Use it mainly on one target at a time. If others are around, don't sing it for the reason you explained above.

By lvl 48 you will have a group with a good cleric and a good Tank who knows how to taunt. Trust your Tank to keep the mob off you. I have not noticed any extra aggro while using this song. I have however noticed alot of benefits. It's a VERY good song. Just ask Paschendale, she loves it.. I heard her ranting about how good it is a few times. hehehe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good luck with it!

~ * ~ Flicx Stardrifter ~ * ~
Minstrel of the 54th Tunes
Knights of Eternity, Tarrew Marr
Quote:
Zelandakh
Rockstar
Posts: 156
(5/18/01 4:30:02 am)
Reply Re: Selos' Chords of Cessation
If you are the main cc and you have a shammy in grp doing hastes and slows this is a useful song as psrt of a dmg twist - not only does it do good dmg but it also alerts you to the presence of any adds that may be out of your eyeline.

The other main use of this song for me is in ae grps. I sing this first up there so the mobs are slowed and to give a high taunt factor quickly. To be honest though this use gets replaced by assonair strane quite quickly as a the additional slowing and taunt outweighs the dmg typically.

(-: Zel :-)

https://web.archive.org/web/20010718...picID=53.topic

Quote:
eqdiva
Diva
Posts: 198
(4/20/01 12:42:32 pm)
Reply
Community Supporter
Shield of Songs
Yeah, it was my newest song, so I played it alot recently...

Anyway, with lute equipped, and chain-singing this song, with a twist of Hymn now and then, I can put the cleric out of a job.

I didn't realize the effects of the song were so dramatic, but everytime I played it, the healer of the group totally noticed, and did not want me to stop.

It does tend to aggro now and then, so hopefully you have a good chanter in your party. But, it might be nice to play if you find yourself in a group with lack of healing types.
Quote:
Treebird
Guest Singer
(4/20/01 4:07:13 pm)
Reply shield of songs
I like but it does have a high taunt value and you have to consider whether twisting in nivs with hymn or replenishment might be better as with a seen strin lute it reduces about 52 points of damage. But it seems to only refresh when actually playing and only every 6 seconds even then so twisting it means a 52 reduction every twist round or about 15 seconds. So yo kind of have a decision to make depending on what you have memmed, how many taking damage etcetc. The only comment is that this might be better before anyone is damaged and heal songs when two or more are damaged.
Have fun - no end to decisions in a bardic life. (hehe)
also works very well with shaman slow.

Treebird Sparrasong
BArd of 54 songs (Nameless)

https://web.archive.org/web/20020102...icID=191.topic

Quote:
Krullin
Composer
Posts: 50
(9/19/01 9:50:04 pm)
Reply Re: Song line ups for all you 60's out there...
From a bard with epic:
Exp withenchanter:
1. largo absonent binding (51). I like the great AC/agi debuff of this song with epic.
2. lvl 53 Mez (if the enchanter dies for some reason, no worries you are there!)
3. Cantata of replenishment (55).
4. Charm (39) / largo's melodic binding (20).
- charm if enchanter and I cooperate (ex: in velketors kobolts camp, I charm the non casting meeling mobs and they mez the casting - healers - ones).
- In Sebilis I usually have largo's melodic binding memed however.. If there is a nasty pulls, the song gets the slowed mobs on the bard (which can tank better than the enchanter...) and the enchanter can mez and the cleric can heal without being attacked and interrupted.
5. McVaxius rousing rondo
6. angslitch assonance (60): it adds to the dmg (45 dmg a tick with epic) and slows usually before the enchanter slows.
7. Occlusion of sound (55): good long distance song to pull or to help reduces resistances on a high lvl mob (like the named kobs in Velk) so a slow can land.
8. Kazumi note of preservation

I usually twist 1-3-5

Without enchanter:
1-2-3-5-6-7-8 usually remain the same (unless I am pulling I might drop one for lull).
I usually have charm and only charm memed in 4.

Raids (referring a lot to North ToV):
1. occlusion of sound
2. Verses of Victory (for the AC if I am in main tank group)
3. cantata of replenishment
4. McVaxius rousing rondo
5. Niv's harmonic (for the AC if I am in main tank group)
6. Anglistch assonace (it's fun to land a slow before the shaman on a mob that flurries every second...)
7. Song of dawn: on a big dragon I use it every once and then to reduce agro.
8. Kazumi note of preservation
(9. depending on the circumstances I will swap one song for either one of the psalm series or for elemental rythms).

Of course this is my song lineup. I don't say it's the best but it has worked rather well until now [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] .

https://web.archive.org/web/20010421...gs.asp?song=18

Quote:
Saturday, April 21, 2001 27 bards singing in an orchestra online
Home > Songs > Denon's Disruptive Discord

Level 18 - Denon's Disruptive Discord Level:
50
Effect: AE DoT, Debuff
Target: Outward Radius AE
Brass
Description: Area Effect - DoT, Lower AC; Deals 20-30 damage per tick, reduces AC by 10-30 points. Careful of the taunt effect this song provokes.
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Old 03-28-2023, 02:01 PM
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https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../011801-2.html

Quote:
GrollerDaBard
Station Member posted 09-07-2000 08:59 PM
Might as well just remove the songs now.
Replace them with the "Taunt" skill, since that's what these songs do anyway.


The Mage's suggested we get summon beer instead.

I could use a drink right now.

Groller the disillusioned bard

Quote:
Nayami
Station Member posted 09-07-2000 10:52 PM

...

5. Defensive caps for Paladins and SKs raised, rangers get jolt and double damage bow attacks. Bards get ummmm nothing... At least give the bards an evade type of skill like the rogues. We get aggroed way to easy and fold like tissue paper when we get the mobs attention.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-3.html

Quote:
Rynnia
Station Member posted 09-07-2000 10:57 PM
I ditched my bard last August when this line of spells stopped working. I couldn't melee too well so that was kinda boring.... I couldnt tank yet most everything would be mad at me for singing... so that was kinda un-fun... I could buff the party with stat increases, yet we all know stats do not affect the outcome of a battle significantly in the small quantities that a bard can increase them, I could haste the party with my songs but in a party with 6 people (of which 2 were probably tanks), it was better for me to sing manasong to let the casters nuke 1 or 2 more times per battle....
Quote:
Dalakar_Daystar
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 12:56 AM
Ok, So I can take the Mez Songs not working. I never had the Snare and Lullaby songs Pre-nerf anyway, cuz I'm a post-Kunark n00b type person.
But What I want is the Ability to melee decently beyond level 20 or so. Here I am, fighting Pickclaw Lookouts and Guards in Highpass. Theres a full group, A Cleric, A Warrior, A druid, an Enchanter, A Shaman, and Myself. Anyway, We're fighting a Guard, and I'm tearing into with my Thulian Claws (A Gift from someone, I'm not a twink at all, This is my first char) and Polished Granite Tomahawk, Getting 8-12 Damage per swipe I'd say. Meanwhile, The Shaman (Also untwinked, Wearing mostly chain and leather) picks up his Hammer and is doing 20-36 damage a swipe. Yep, I'm getting outdamaged by a Shaman. Also, My Songs are aggroing the Guard on me, So The Cleric is busy healing me after about 15 seconds because I'm down to Half Health cuz the Warrior is having a Hard time taunting it off me.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-4.html

Quote:
statchris
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 07:53 AM

I understand the complexities Verant faces in view of the Bard song being manaless.

...

It is my opinion that this line of songs needs to be fixed. You wouldnt know it from my calm discussion preceding, but I am actually quite miffed. I am happy that Verant is at least responding, but there is no way these songs are working as intended, unless the intent was a dysfunctional song - or a taunt song....we have enough of those though. From what I have heard so far, there has not even been official acknowledgement of dysfunctionality. This is what is creating almost uncontrollable impulses to slam my foot through the computer monitor screen. I imagine this is the case for many other bards. Perhaps there is no solution to please both parties, but for the sake of all the is melodious, please admit this is a problem. A level 50+ bard not being able to mez a single creature in a group of five level one mobs is not acceptable.

Please keep the lines of communication open Verant. It is the only thing keeping me sane right now.

Tunella,
Bristlebane
Quote:
Leftie107
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 08:59 AM

"They aren't completely useless, just reduced in usefulness once the targets go over level 30. That said, we're not opposed to revisiting pixie strike and twilight to see if they need to be changed positively now that we know that lullaby is working correctly."

...

6. This song tends to aggro all the critters it affects how shall I say this? hmmm "a wee bit".

...

Bard must play this one and this one song only. Due to #6 and the fact that the rest of the group will focus on just one critter, all the other citters' attention will be on the bard. Because of #2-#6, the chance of a bard successfully mez all of the critters is pretty much anywhere from slim to none. Do you have any objection to the above conclusion?

...

Bard is the only crowd control person in the group. Bard starts playing the Lull song, everyone focus on one target, cleric keeps eyes on bard's hp bar. _ALL_ critters, except for the one being attacked by the group will have the bard on top of the hate list.[/B]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-5.html

Quote:
Absor
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 10:19 AM
I had to stop reading partway through the thread, I do have real work to do today...
But here's the problem as I see it.

The song works with the percentage effectiveness that Verant wants it to. And I think I understand why. You just can't have a no mana, continuous mez with a good chance of success. It's too powerful.

On the other hand, players are saying that even as is, one break of the spell leads to a bard beating, which in turn causes the song to drop and an even bigger beating to occur. This makes singing this song a surefire taunt, and a certain death sentence to the bard.

Howsabout this as a solution.

Add a component to the song that will clear the bard from the hate list (or clear the whole hate list, if that's how those things work). So, yes, if the song fails the bard will get beat. But the ones that he successfully mezzed will not necessarily join the beating. This might fix the problem all around. It won't make the bard too powerful by being able to free mez the world, and it might keep the bard from getting beat to death every time. It's also fairly consistant with the song effect.

Tactics: In the moment decisions that come down to reaction time. Active, assertive gut choices.
Strategies: Experience-based responses that apply more broadly to overall approach. Passive, contemplative intentions.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-6.html

Quote:
Woof359
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 02:41 PM
It's not that "lullabye isn't too hot after 30." It's that it's never even lukewarm. At level 16 I made the mistake of trying to play lullabye to some blue death beetles in Unrest, and I got spanked for it. 75% resist rate and they ALL aggro'd on me for it. I used up all of the cleric's mana. That was with 85 CHA (not the best, but give me a break, I was level 16) with an instrument.
The song is completely useless.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-9.html

Quote:
E-Wolf
Station Member posted 09-09-2000 09:57 AM

...

Songs are NOT spells. They can't be cast then forgotten. Beneficial songs only affect group members. Direct damage songs are much weaker than even a warrior's BASH skill. Area effect spells get you killed because your tanking ability is nearly as weak as a caster. In fact, my druid can tank better. Everything about the class is weak to begin with. Yet I love my bard.
Quote:
Finnias
Station Member posted 09-09-2000 03:51 PM
I don't really agree that bards should have some of the things that are asked for here, but I do think we are resisted way too often, and I think that the main song in question here, the lullaby, CERTAINLY has problems, even at pre-50 levels.
The first time my bard tried to use it, all it did was nearly get me killed and taunt everything off the tanks and onto me! It is a megataunt... and it's not very effective.

With that said, I'm very suprised that the very very small number of bards out there have managed to generate such a large thread! You'd think that this very fact in itself would cause Verant to take the issue a little more seriously...

As far as I'm concerned, they can make it not effective at 30+, but make it at least moderately useful at pre 30.
Quote:
-Rian-
Station Member posted 09-09-2000 06:01 PM
Surely there is another way to balance our level 15 lullaby song besides making it not work at all. The song is broken, it doesn't work in any practical sense in any context I can think of within the game (beyond level 20 or so).
The only context that I can imagine you would actually use this song is if you needed to taunt multiple mobs to attack you at once. Perhaps this could be the new purpose for Lullaby. I suggest either fixing it, or renaming it. Perhaps "Terrible Taunt" might work. Or "Death Dare" or "Magnificent Manadump" something of that nature. Change the primary and secondary resist messages to read "YOU taunt a moss snake to ignore others and attack only you." Viola, fixed song.

Also, while you are at it, I suggest enchancing the abilities of Enchanters somewhat, further widening the gap between their percieved/real necessity as part of the group and the percieved/real risk of adventuring in kunark without them. Adventuring in Kunark without an enchanter is like the difference between driving a porche and taking your little brother's bigwheel. The only other class that approaches the real/percieved necessity of an enchanter in Kunark is a cleric. Luckily clerics are one of the most popular classes to play and there isn't really a shortage of them. I wonder how often bards would be sought out in groups if we didn't have a mana regen capability or if there were an abundance of high-level enchanters around. Seems to me, fixing the bard mez line - including lullaby - would kill two birds with one stone.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304...011801-10.html

Quote:
Lirana
Station Member posted 09-10-2000 03:51 AM
I got to thinking...maybe, just MAYBE, they named the song incorrectly, much in the way they neglected to mention the double resist checks. MAYBE, the song is supposed to be called "Kelin's Taunting Tremelo" and the "resist rates" that many of us have calculated were actually "success rates." MAYBE, the MOB "nods" because your taunts are boring the creature. You know, much in the way that sticking your tongue at someone when you are four years old is mean, but doing it when you are forty is just...dumb? So, MAYBE we've all been wrong, and the song does work correctly. Just a thought...

https://web.archive.org/web/20030511...opicID=5.topic

Quote:
Mythras
Registered User
(2/19/01 7:56:05 pm)
Reply
Re: Twisting and healing songs...
Why in the world would anyone think you can't solo a wood elf bard? At lvl 12 I could solo lego's in Crushbone with nothing but my fists and a lute and come out of the battle with only 1 bubble of damage (twisting Chords, Hymn, and Bellow). I just made 16th with my wood elf bard and I'm having a blast soloing in Unrest. And Taluvil is correct about the effect of Hymn, it really does alst three pulses

I also have a lvl 44 bard, and regarding Hymn, you are about to enter a period, late teens to mid twenties, where Hymn will get you killed faster than anything else when you are grouped and pull multiples. The aggro you build up with unengaged mobs will pull them on you like flies on....umm, like bees on a flower. By the mid twenties the tanks are able to out-aggro you with their damage dealing, but until then save Hymn for downtime when you are grouped. This thread is about soloing, but I just wanted to throw that out FYI regarding Hymn =)
Quote:
Nahntanaj
Registered User
(3/15/01 1:36:45 am)
Reply Re: Twisting and healing songs...
I have too disagree with hymn building agro you jusy group wiht people who don't taunt. I had trouble building my defense skill for level 25 and 26 becuase I never got hit. Then I got the song of the sirens and that is agro OMG!

https://web.archive.org/web/20010421...picID=14.topic

Quote:
leeloominai
Unregistered User
(8/6/00 7:02:44 pm)
Reply We aren't tanks are we?
It seems like every group I get in I end up being a tank. Does this happen to you all or am i just being too nice? I died eight times today...eight...Also why do we get aggroed so much?
Quote:
Twang
Registered User
(8/8/00 5:39:21 am)
Reply
Re: We aren't tanks are we?
Especially as you get higher in level, you will not be able to take the damage. At 51, I need two healers to have a chance at tanking (one usually does primarily buffs).

If you have other melee/hybrid classes in you group and you are still getting beat down, then you have one of a couple problems. Either the tank doesn't know how to taunt (problably not) or else you are dealing too much dmg coupled with your song aggro. One thing I had to learn the hard way was to back off. For the longest time, I had weapons above my level and an FBSS (pride myself on being a good bargainer). If you have a similar situation, and you are getting beat on, either only twist two song or turn off attack and step back once in a while. You might also try not attacking right away. All these options will help your tank remain high on the MOBs aggro list.
-Twang ALangADingBong
The Age of Wisdom
51 songs and growing

https://web.archive.org/web/20030301...opicID=4.topic

Quote:
Shallie Dreamsong of CazicThule
Unregistered User
(12/4/99 6:31:11 pm)
Reply Is It Just Me, Or ...
... Does every Monster Attack the Bard in the Party, Even when Both Tanks are Taunting it?

... Does Lambent Armour Give about 4AC? It Looks nice, Sure, But I can swear my Banded was Giving me Higher AC!
... Have you ever Seen a 40th level Shaman cast Lesser Heal? Why Don't we get a Better Heal Song? Heck, why not a DH?
... Does **no one** relise that Hymn of Restoration Increases Healing Rate and/or Amount? I Swear, if one more person says "What do those Blue Sparkles do .." I'll scream!
... Do we get **no** Decent DD spells till were in the High levels, at which point were in Gruips who have Nukers & Casters?
... Is it Impossable to Twist/Twine Songs with a Cruddy Connection? Any one Wanna buy me a DSL Line for the Holidays?

Arg! Glad to Share my Littel annoinces with me Fellow Singers, now that I Hurt my Through Yelling .

May the Gods Find Favior with You,
Shallie Dreamsong
Cazic-Thule

https://web.archive.org/web/20010421...opicID=3.topic

Quote:
Servo Eci
Unregistered User
(12/3/99 5:58:28 pm)
Reply WHY!!!
Ya know, I've gotten to 30th level, approaching 31st soon....what I want to know is why everything in the world HATES BARDS...

I mean, in a group, who's the first thing the monsters will come after? The Bard...I am in Cazic Thule now with my guild, and they end up healing me at least twice more then they heal anyone else, and to top it off, I will be the first to die when a train gets outta control (Just before the mages usually go OOM! heeheh)

But anyways...what is it with Verant, do they not like Bards? I have been in groups were I am the Higher Level player with people under me, and they STILL come after me...its gotten very annoying...and the Armor while nice...well...I think it still has some issues...I feel like I am wearing tissue paper sometimes the amount of damage I take.

Anyways, I think I have vented a couple of things off my chest...let's hear some more vents! I wanna know if I am not the only one who feels like the Bard is a Monster Magnet.

Now...I love being a Bard, the Selo Song makes it worth it alone, I love being able to outrun them SoW'ed people...hehehe...I often run by them and go BEEP! BEEP! Just would like to see some changes done to the monster S-List or something.

Later folks!
Servo
Bard of Ec'i
Quote:
Kaolin Silvernote
Global user
(6/6/00 10:16:27 am)
Reply Re: Here's why
Get used to it, the problem only gets worse. Basically since bards are always singing, when a train comes normally maybe 1 of the mobs is mad at the puller, but the rest are just chasing the puller. Our songs that are hasting, healing, etc piss of the remaining mobs that came so they go for the bard. This gets more deadly when you head to the planes, and harder Kunark dungeons. It's the price of being a bard, among other things. The life of a bard is not an easy one, but every now and then it still pays off. Dragons anyone? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010417...picID=10.topic

Quote:
Rian
Global user
(2/9/00 3:28:56 pm)
Reply
Re: More dumb newbie questions
1) Do group buff songs affect party members' pets as well? I thought they wouldn't until I thought I saw the song/spell effect graphics pulsing around a grouped necro's skellie.

Your group buff songs do not enhance pets unfortunetly. As posted above though, offensive AOE's will target and hit pets though not harm them. The only exception I have seen to this rule is if you are grouped with a Necro with a pet. Due to a bug or "feature" (whatever your perspective is), when necro's go linkdead their pets often go out of control. If you hapeen to have an AOE offensive song up and it hits the pet while it has no master, it may attack you.

2) It seemed when I was first doing research for my bard the general consensus was that investing points in STR was a short-sighted idea. But even with weapon skills maxed I'm still only hitting blues one out of three times (STR=75 unbuffed). Is it pretty common for low/mid level bards to seek +STR items (to raise ATK) as much as +DEX, +CHA, or +AGI stuff?

The high-level armor is pretty lightweight actually, but strength is never a bad thing. Just remember the two most important stats for a bard are Dexterity and Charisma. In my opinion, the third most important is AC, but there are arguments for and and against that.

3) Do buff songs (not the healing ones) increase aggro towards you from mobs your group is fighting? Every time my group (necro, 2 clerics, monk, rogue, me) pulled orcs in West Commons the orcs would pummel me into the ground ... even when I wasn't meleeing them, just singing away.

Yes. All of your buff songs are taunts. Some songs taunt more than others. Your songs will taunt more than your melee attacks will. The best thing to do is make sure the healer in your group is aware of this fact and pays special attention to your Hps. Short of that, if you are getting too much attention from the mobs, turn your song off and allow them to retarget. Stop attacking too if you have too. Casters have to do the same sort of thing, learn when it is "safe" to cast and when it is not. The same is true of bards. Don't be afraid to shut up.
Rian Luckless
The Cursed Bard

https://web.archive.org/web/20020114...opicID=4.topic

Quote:
Tinvaran
Unregistered User
(6/8/00 8:59:24 am)
Reply Selo's Consonant Chain song
This song has been a staple for me from the first level I got it till now (level 35). Compared to caster's root/snare, it does the following:

[1] Very high taunt, repeated use is almost as good as charm, I have pulled Mobs off wizzies and melee types with it, even when they have done far more damage than I ever could. This of course is a two-sided effect...usually when I stop using it, the melee types can taunt the mob off ME (unlike charm) ;-)

[2] Slows the mob's atk speed by up to 30%, this is often not noticeable in the heat of combat, and I wouldn't vouch for the actual percentage, but it DOES slow them down some. When used in conjunction with an atk speed song like Anthem [group] or Warsong [self], the difference is very noticeable.

[3] Reduces the **vectored** movement of a mob by about 60%. This means that when a mob flees, the movement in the direction of its motion is reduced by this much, that is why when the mob is reduced to about 1/3 of its hp, it virtually comes to a halt if 'chained'.

I have also noticed that this song has recently been 'nerfed' by Verant, and that it often no longer lasts the full 3 ticks that it used to, before Verant introuced the message that tells you when it wears off. Hopefully this is a bug which Verant will fix (when they get around to it). As for the atk speed debuff, it appears that it too has been reduced in order to make the level 50+ songs look more attractive.

Evidence that bard aggro was still an issue post-Velious...

https://web.archive.org/web/20030815...tml?num=347604

23:45:40 Aug 15, 2003

Quote:
This is my main. I have gotten every item on me by myself, or in a group. I am not doing the absolute best melee damage that I could be, but since I keep drawing aggro from even 61 tanks, I dont think I want to be til I get my 53 aggro reducing song. Getting hit for 300+ damage hurts, even when it is only once in a while.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040707...x?PostID=31745

Quote:
Author Thread: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
dpresley is not online. Last active: 7/7/2004 4:43:35 PM dpresley
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 38

I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 5:05 PM
I have a 58 sk and am used to getting and keeping agro from just about anyone in an ldon or any group for that matter (given that i am MT of course). My point is i know that it's possible and not TOO difficult to get and keep agro from a bard.

My question comes from the point of view of my bard. Every group im in... every ldon im in, the tank just doesnt get and keep agro. It ping pongs back and forth (mostly on me). I dont mind tanking, i can, but im sure the MH would REALLY like to just have to heal one player instead of 2.

I usually twist slow, haste, mana and misc song... pull with the MR reducing DD. I've even been starting my twist so that slow lands last to see if THAT was giving me agro so the tanks couldnt get it.

Is the problem me and the song line up im twisting, or is the problem that i've been finding folks that just dont understand agro? I've read thru the forums and found a few posts about tanking, and trying to get and keep agro as a bard, but not any about NOT keeping agro. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Semin Insane
60 Bard
Zeb Server
Black Rose Knights
My Magelo
Quote:
wyndaria56 is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 12:23:20 PM wyndaria56
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 73

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 5:18 PM
Yer DOT is what's giving you the agro. Drop that and you'll be golden.

And, to answer your other question, if you are getting hit, YOU are the problem. That's the golden rule of agro. It's YOUR job not to get hit, not the tanks job to out agro you. As you're tank gets better gear and AA's, it will get easier, but for now, do less agro stuff and you'll get hit less.

I always pull with 65 Harmony of Sound (MR debuf with no dot) and then 64 Requiem of Time (52% slow). Once the tank hits the mob once, I never get hit again... And, if people start dying, I'm the last to get agro.

Good luck,
Wyndaria,
Maestro, Nameless.
Quote:
Steppy is not online. Last active: 7/7/2004 4:59:08 PM Steppy
Forum Moderator
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Total Posts: 1139

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 6:05 PM
At 65, I land 2 or 3 effects on a mob between initial agro and when the MA takes over. One is Harmony of Sound to debuff resists. The second is Requeim of Time to slow the mob. I MAY initially pull with Druzzil's Disillusionment and than add in those two if I know the mob has a damage shield on it.

Now look at what those three do -- no damage. Debuff resists, slow attack speed, possibly dispell buffs or DS, but no damage. If you pull with a DoT or a larger DD, you establish a lot more initial agro.

Personally, I think a competent warrior or knight should STILL be able to pull agro off of you, but I do LDON with a 65 warrior who has anger-proc type weapons and if I am stacking DoTs on a mob, I can still take agro away from her. Our chants generate some truly vicious agro. Try pulling with Occlusion of Sound to set up your slower and let the MA get a few hits in before you do any damage and I bet you'll stop taking agro away. On a normal LDON or a hard at lower level, it isn't too big a deal it you take agro for awhile. At level 65, the mobs hit for 992 and have a huge attack rating -- a couple of those beating on a bard can kill him in seconds so you MUST be able to hand off agro quickly at that level.
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nadstar is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 11:45:13 PM nadstar
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Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 7:32 PM
I have noticed that if I pull with a DoT, then i will get agro occasionally when it gets back, so my suggestion is, dont pull with a DoT.

To me, the MT's job is to take hits, and hold agro that the other group members can effectivly do their jobs.
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Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 8:27 PM
Why do you pull with the dot? If your goal is to drop MR pull with OOS. Very little agro, most tanks can grab agro pretty fast from it. If the purpose is to just pull...simple, pull with song of dawn, its the lowest agro song we have (for obvious reasons) The tank will grab agro immediately.
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wyndaria56 is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 12:23:20 PM wyndaria56
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Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 9:35 PM
Also, for what it's worth, your agro lessens as you go up in levels. It may sound strange, but it seemed, the higher I got in levels, the less agro my songs had. Meaning, as I upgraded to higher and higher songs, I got agro less and les.

Early on, I used to swap agro with my wife (war) and we would duo using bard regen to heal. But, as we got up in levels, I stopped being able to get hit. So, maybe yer just not at that threshold yet.

Either way, don't pull with a DoT.

Wyndaria.
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Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 31 04 2:53 AM
In my early years I used to grab aggro every now and then, but at later levels this becomes harder and harder as the real tanks (this excluded warriors in some extend but they have fixed that) grab aggro easier.

It's indeed partly the songs you play. I don't use DDs in a fight, and no DoTs. Our dots are pretty good (your best damage output too, till you get sufficient AAs etc.) and I once tested this with a monk. Monk was meleeing mobs while I was standing on a distance twisting dots. I simply out-aggroed the monk. Every time.

Our slows and snares are very low aggro, actually. Much lower than what Shamen and Enchanters cast at any rate. You'll frequently see a mob speed off to a chanter or shaman right after they slowed the mob - their spell is high aggro. The bard slow songs are very light in aggro, compared to that. Also OOS (Occlusion of Sound) or its upgrade (HoS) are very low aggro and thus good pulling tools (if you have epic or a drum). They lower the resists. Again, much less aggro than for example the Tash line.

When I didn't yet have my epic, and was helping meleeing in LDoNs I actually pulled with the single target 'cancel magic' song (can't think of the name right now). It's a bit higher aggro than pulling with slow or resist debuffs, but the advantage is that it often strips damageshields and other possible buffs mobs in LDoN are bestowed with.

If you then still have problems with aggro, you can consider putting the song 'Song of Dawn' in your lineup and twisting it in every now and then, to lower yourself on the hate list. The saber mentioned earlier (that drops in Chardok) procs the same effect, so that may help as well. In general you probably don't want the aggro, as getting beat upon also means that you get interrupted/stunned and that seriously messes up your twist efficiency/fluency.

Finally, I also agree that it's not the bard's fault to get aggro if they do (at later levels, I'm not talking of level 10, 20) unless they are specifically provoking it (i.e. dotting like crazy, chain singing damage rune song, etc. they are all very high aggro generators), it's the task of the tank to try and maintain aggro. Paladins can do this with stuns, Shadowknights have the slows and Terror line, Warriors have the provoke line, all of them have taunt (and even though the latter is far from reliable, it does help at times).

Good luck.
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Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 31 04 7:50 AM
Like everyone has said, don't pull with the dot. I pull with HoS and/or RoT, and I stop songs as I pull it into camp. I run to just beside/behind the tank, and don't attack til he does. It's more just habit but I try to do every possible thing to keep aggro off me. The only difference there is if I have two or more coming, I'll sing Wind of Marr so the adds will run to me instead of a caster. Lazy way to target is to hit escape, hope it hits me, and mezz. In my particular group, the MT assists off me to get their target, so switching to mezz before the target is in the room isn't the best choice.Smiley

When I was lower level, I also pulled with the snare/slow. I often fight with knights tanking, so aggro isn't a problem at all for them. I still am courteous and don't sing or attack til they cast snare/stun and attack though. I don't want to make anyone burn through mana. I'm just a tad more careful on warriors, but the warriors I have tank for me know how to get their aggro well, especially since we all work with them on it.Smiley
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Aggro reduced again in mid-late 2004, this time effecting the chant dots mentioned as generating a lot of hate above, only months earlier. There is also mention of an earlier nerf to hate that came in Kunark, likely pertaining to the patch that made hymn and heals in general less problematic (linked below).

https://web.archive.org/web/20041101...x?PostID=54676

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Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 1 04 4:12 PM
Has there been any official statement from Sony as to why they reduced agro on our songs (chants verified not sure of what else)?
Hoping it was unintentional, I would like to be able to agro kite again with friends.
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barbai
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Total Posts: 986

Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 1 04 11:20 PM
do you mean if there was any change recently or when they made the change in kunark?
“Allow my song to heal your wounds, clear your mind, and hasten your blade”
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Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 2 04 1:26 AM
There is a HUGE difference in aggro on chants now.
Nice as it has been occasionally to twist the chants while pet holds aggro easily, it's impossible for me to aggro kite now.


Jyve
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Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 7 04 5:49 AM
The thing that scares me is when they try to 'fix it' if they do....

I can easily see them making it so the songs generate too much aggro again....

I know the coding of bard aggro must be very difficult and so mistakes are made...Just be thanksful it was only the chants affected and to lessen aggro... I don't fancy having the problems (even for a short while) of bard songs generating too much aggro again...
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Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 8 04 1:41 PM
Bah! WTB decent agro from my chants again. A few months ago, I was able to hold agro just fine in Time phase 1 with chants. Now, with BOC in primary, ED in secondary, and twisting 3 dots/marr, monks can steal my agro Crying. This sucks, because the times that I play for exp or questing, there are usually no tanks online with more HP than I. At least the cleric I bot doesn't steal agro with his heals, but, thats about it.....I lose agro to beasts, wizards and rogues etc, like mad, even when they wait 20% of the mobs health to assist. Only good thing I could see from this is being able to twist full dots on time gods with shaky agro, so they don't turn around to take a swipe at me, and cause deaths to my raid (and myself, of course). Haven't been in Time for a while to test this though, so not sure.
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No, I deleted my mana song, sry.

Relevant changes made to hate in 2001 patches.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020210...02212001.shtml

Quote:
February 21st, 3:00 am
------------------------------

Today's patch contains a wide variety of enhancements and changes. Due to the number of changes being made, this list is primarily a summary. Extended descriptions of the changes and the reasoning behind them can be solicited on the EverQuest Message Boards.

...

** NPC AI - Hate **

We've made a number of changes to NPC AI, specifically to the section dealing with target-selection, or what's commonly referred to as "Hate". It is not so much that NPCs react differently to hate now than before, but that we've changed the way that hate is awarded.

We reduced the amount of hate that can be caused by a proc. Due to the high proc rates at upper levels, the amount of hate generated from procs, and the spells that were selected for those procs, made keeping the attention of the creature much too easy a task for the tank. Simply, it nearly eliminated the challenge of keeping a foes attention at levels above 50.
We've capped the amount of hate that can be awarded to most casters, specifically for debuff-type spells like the Malo and Tash series. The hate calculation for these spells takes into account the number of hitpoints of the NPC and did not "play nice" with the increased HP limit of Velious. It explains why Enchanters, for instance, would complain that casting a Tash spell would lead to near-instant death.
We've redressed the amount of hate generated by heal spells. Previously, and *partly* due to a bug, the high level heal spells such as superior heal or complete heal would generate no more hate than greater heal. In fact, so little hate was generated by these spells that it made controlling NPC aggression trivial. Heal spells will now generate an amount of hate more in line with the number of hitpoints actually healed. Due to our desire to leave the lower level game more or less untouched, two separate caps have been placed for targets level 50 or below, and 51 or above. Heal spells will generate significantly less hate for targets below level 51 than those at or above that level.

We've also re-evaluated ways that players have to reduce their own hate. While spells in place to allow this are OK, the Evade skill (possessed by rogues) let them out of their damage too easily. A rogue that successfully evaded would immediately drop to a level of hate lower than someone who was in the awareness range, but hadn't done anything to really upset the creature such as damage it or heal its foe. This problem was exacerbated by the increase of the size of the hate list implemented with Velious.

https://web.archive.org/web/20011206...03062001.shtml

Quote:
March 6th, 3:00 am
------------------------------

...

** PC AI Adjustments **

Level 60 players with the taunt skill will now have a chance to taunt creatures that are level 60 to 65. Previously, players could only taunt creatures below their level.
NPCs that are mesmerized or stunned will now only add a very small amount of hate when they see you cast beneficial spells on their enemies. Prior to this, they would add full hate when they saw you do this. This is why NPCs would always jump the cleric after breaking Mez.
Fixed a bug that would cause NPCs to add too much 'temporary hate' when a player would sit down in front of them.
The maximum amount of 'hate' that an NPC can add when witnessing a heal to targets above level 50 has been decreased substantially.
Hate from heals is also now calculated at a lesser number than the number of hitpoints healed. Previously, healing one hitpoint would cause one point of hate. Now, healing 3 hitpoints will cause 2 points of hate.
Supposing these patches did lessen the hate generated by songs, not all songs were reduced or at least not to the same extent (since dots and shield of song were reported to draw aggro long after Velious in comments previously posted).
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Old 04-04-2023, 04:28 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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https://web.archive.org/web/20011201...ngs/Song18.htm

Quote:
DENON's DISRUPTIVE DISCORD
Level: 18

Effect: Damage over time, lowers targets' AC

Skill: Brass

Target: Area Effect

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: N/A

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:41:28

https://web.archive.org/web/20011201...ngs/Song20.htm

Quote:
LARGO's MELODIC BINDING
Level: 20

Effect: Lowers targets' AC and attack speed(-28%)

Skill: Singing

Target: Area Effect

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: Attack speed debuff does not stack with Consonant Chain's or enchanter/shaman attack speed debuffs.

Taunt: High

...

Cautions:

Due to the high taunt factor be careful when using in a multi mob pull. The good thing is that it will not break Enchanter mesmerize since it is a straight debuff with no damage component.

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:46:56

https://web.archive.org/web/20011201...ngs/Song27.htm

Quote:
SOLON's SONG OF THE SIRENS
Level: 27

Effect: Charm

Skill: Wind

Target: Single

Location: Kelethin

Does not stack with: Mesmerize type spells

Taunt: Very high

...

Cautions:

[Rokenn] This song has no effect in PvP combat. This is on the PvP servers only, charm will work in duels on blue servers.
The song tends to have a pretty big taunt effect. If you're left with a pet with a considerable amount of life left, it will beat on you for quite a while as your party attacks it from behind. A tank can sometimes get it off you with a taunt and high-damage hit, but be prepared to really take a beating until your party gets the former pet off you.

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:39:49

https://web.archive.org/web/20011204...ngs/Song28.htm


Quote:
CRISSION's PIXIE STRIKE
Level: 28

Effect: Mesmerize, lowers magic resistance, Knock back effect

Skill: Wind

Target: Single

Location: Kelethin

Does not stack with: Overrides enchanter's mesmerize line of spells

Taunt: Medium

...

Cautions:

Any attack against the mob will wake it up, so be sure to inform your party when you do this.
[Baelin] If a NPC is DoT'd it will wake up whenever the DoT applies damage.
[Berrymoor] Multi uses of this song on a single mob tends to build up the hate list to very high levels (on the threshold of charm). After mezzing a target about 5-7 times, I've noticed that my enchanter often has to do a mem blur 2-3 times before the hate list is fully cleared, just like some charms.

https://web.archive.org/web/20011204...ngs/Song30.htm

Quote:
FULFIL's CURTAILING CHANT
Level: 30

Effect: -Magic Resistance, Damage over Time (magic based)

Skill: Percussion

Target: Single

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: N/A

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:46:16

https://web.archive.org/web/20011204...ngs/Song38.htm

Quote:
TUYEN's CHANT OF FLAME
Level: 38

Effect: Decreases heat resistance, damage over time (heat based)

Skill: Percussion

Target: Single

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: N/A

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:39:42

https://web.archive.org/web/20011204...ngs/Song39.htm

Quote:
SOLON'S BEWITCHING BRAVURA
Level: 39

Effect: Charm, -MR (Limited to mobs your level or 51st whichever is lower)

Skill: Wind

Target: Single

Location: Kelethin

Does not stack with: Enchanter's mesmerize line of spells

Quantified: Charms the target turning it into your pet for anywhere from 0 to about 15 seconds. Using a wind instrument increases the magic resistance reduction (unconfirmed). This song is highly dependent on your charisma, and will use 20 mana whenever pulsed.

Taunt: Very High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:40:18

https://web.archive.org/web/20011204...ngs/Song46.htm

Quote:
TUYEN's CHANT OF FROST
Level: 46

Effect: Decreases cold resistance, damage over time (cold based)

Skill: Percussion

Target: Single

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: N/A

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:36:19

https://web.archive.org/web/20011204...ngs/Song48.htm

Quote:
SELO's CHORDS OF CESSATION
Level: 48

Effect: Decrease attack speed(-16%) and damage over time.

Skill: String

Target: Area effect

Location: High Hold

Does not stack with: Largo's Melodic Binding or other attack speed debuffs.

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:38:49

https://web.archive.org/web/20011005...ngs/Song49.htm

Quote:
SHIELD OF SONGS
Level: 49

Effect: Damage Absorption

Skill: String

Target: Party

Location: Erudin, Freeport (Seafarers Roost)

Does not stack with: Niv's Melody of Preservation

Quantified: 20 point rune sung; 40 point rune with lute

Taunt: High

Analysis by Rokenn Swiftsong, Karana server

Comments: Adds a Rune type effect to the entire party. Using a string instrument increases the amount of damage absorbed.

Strategies:

Cautions:

Previous List Next Home Feedback on this song

Update: 09/19/2001 07:39:36

https://web.archive.org/web/20011204...gs/song51a.htm

Quote:
LARGO's ABSONANT BINDING
Level: 51

Effect: Slows movement and attack speed, lowers AC and AGL

Skill: Singing

Target: Single

Location: Firiona Vie

Does not stack with: Selo's Chords of Cessation

Taunt: High

Quantified: ?

Analysis by Rokenn Swiftsong, Karana server

Comments: This is an upgrade to Selo's Consonant Chain. The snare effect is weaker then Consonant Chain. When used on myself (at 51st) it lowered AC by over 60 points.

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:46:24
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  #9  
Old 04-05-2023, 03:38 PM
Dolalin Dolalin is offline
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Have a read through what Torven has done on hate research from the old Al Kabor server. Lots of empirical evidence that devs here rely on. Haynar even works on both projects.

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819
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Old 04-05-2023, 06:03 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Have a read through what Torven has done on hate research from the old Al Kabor server. Lots of empirical evidence that devs here rely on. Haynar even works on both projects.

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819
While the direct links/quotes pertaining to heal aggro/etc are very relevant, the tests involving bard songs seem questionable for one reason.

Quote:
Non-damaging detrimental bard song hate seems to be capped 40 on level 20+ NPCs.

Both my level 26 and level 90 bards were doing 40 hate for non-damaging detrimental spells on mid to high level NPCs.

On NPCs below level 20, Largo's Assonant Binding did more than 40 hate. On a level 1 NPC it was doing 55 hate; on a level 19 NPC it was doing 127 hate. (~711 hp) Likewise Selo's Consonant Chain also did more than 40 hate on targets below level 20. Requiem of Time did 47 hate on that same level 19 NPC. On level 20+ NPCs they all did a flat 40 hate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest_expansions

Quote:
House of Thule
EverQuest: House of Thule
Developer(s) Sony Online Entertainment
Publisher(s) Sony Online Entertainment
Release October 12, 2010
The seventeenth expansion pack, EverQuest: House of Thule, was released on October 12, 2010.

Maximum level increased to 90.
So far, player comments point to a drastic reduction in bard aggro some time during 2004 which included procs. Before that, and as late as mid-2003, there remained a general consensus that bards could out-aggro most any other class, often inadvertently.
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