Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by XeroKill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The irony is palpable.

Except it isn't, because you have done nothing to prove I have posted incorrect information. I would be happy to correct any mistake, if you can do more than simply claim it is a mistake. Your claim means nothing without evidence[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Plumpys [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The dude put some work in giving different scenarios and which race prospers the most in each. I would expect him to defend it when most replies have been about fashion or other troll like behavior. Balar’s postings seem personal. Even his response in the other post about how FSI doesn’t stop interrupts only stuns. Well when you’re stunned, you get interrupted so that input is mute.

Dude contributed to some useful information and supplied why/how. What’s your beef man? And with reading your post, I’ll say nice vocabulary. Given how you wrote it, that seems to be the main thing you were trying to have the readers get out of it.

Thank you for the support, and the understanding! In regards to Baler, he simply is too biased in his opinion to admit he is wrong. I have asked him repeatedly to prove the claims he has made, but he has yet to do so. I sincerely wish he can make good with proof on those claims, as I love to learn new things.

Originally Posted by XeroKill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Be fair at least. I have absolutely no beef with him as a person or his information. I was trying to help him understand the animosity. I did not dispute his information and I completely agree that he has contributed a significant work to the community. I made it a point to say as much. I was trying to help him understand that the resistance he is experiencing has nothing to do with the issue of Shaman race selection even if all the words on the page say otherwise. It is very much his dogmatic defense of his position and the false sincerity he exudes in his responses. I can see someone wanting to defend their work but at some point, after all the arguments have been made, restated, reiterated and then said again in a different way... you just have to let it go.

I can't speak to the issue with Baler, and I agree that it seems that at some point their disagreement became personal for both of them, even if DeathsSilkyMist won't admit it on his part. At least Baler's sincerity cannot be questioned because he doesn't equivocate.

As for my vocabulary... I mean, that is just how I think, speak and type. I make no apologies for my elocution. I think your need to bring it up says more about you than my choice of verbiage says about me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, at the risk of running afoul of my own advice, I bid this thread and its participants good day.

I understand where you are coming from, and I am not offended at all. On the contrary, I was sincere when I said I appreciate the concern. I will say it again, my guide is here so people can get to the facts quickly. For some strange reason, a lot of people on P99 make this discussion about Shaman race mystical in some fashion, when it really is not. I do not support those kinds of mystical arguments, and I will not sit by and let them undermine the facts. This guide is not here for people to study my personality, it is here so people can learn without sifting through pages of nonsense. It is not my fault people keep trying to troll this thread or post nonsense in the hopes that it will undermine what I have shown. If you want to disprove something in my guide, bring the evidence[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

This really isn't the full picture. Trolls are not the best raid only Shaman, or the best guild bot, for example.

[kjs86z]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This really isn't the full picture. Trolls are not the best raid only Shaman, or the best guild bot, for example.

Except it is 100% the full picture, complete and entirely accurate.

Its borderline nuts how you'll argue every little thing down to the most insignificant detail. Its 2021. No one cares.

I'm sorry you're hurt that I was able to summarize your painfully long-winded essay and endless nit-picky responses into 3 lines and 13 words.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except it is 100% the full picture, complete and entirely accurate.

Its borderline nuts how you'll argue every little thing down to the most insignificant detail. Its 2021. No one cares.

I'm sorry you're hurt that I was able to summarize your painfully long-winded essay and endless nit-picky responses into 3 lines and 13 words.

I am not hurt at all, and you are factually incorrect[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Next time put a bit more effort into your lazily written summary, so people can get the correct information.

Nobody cares about your opinion on what is significant to you. People want the objectice facts, so they can make up their own mind on what is significant to their playstyle.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not hurt at all, and you are factually incorrect[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Next time put a bit more effort into your lazily written summary, so people can get the correct information.

Nobody cares about your opinion on what is significant to you. People want the objectice facts, so they can make up their own mind on what is significant to their playstyle.

But your facts aren’t objective, lol! Your guide just explains scenarios a shaman can encounter, then you state whether or not you think a particular racial is useful and then you tally up the results. This is 100% subjective. If you made a poll of every one of those scenarios and asked people to vote, you’d get vastly different results.

For instance I happen to feel that FSI is overall useless on raids in normal situations. We’re it that useful, people would be making a lot more ogres for raid purposes. Shamans aren’t getting focused down left and right trying to slow stuff, it’s rarely useful. And you even admitted iksars were the best raiding shaman. I actually wonder if you flipped that one to useful after thinking oh shit iksars won in my tally system.

With that one change of opinion in that scenario, that actually gives iksars the most points. So by your tally logic they are the best shaman now.

Please stop spreading your opinions as facts. Nobody needs to provide this new and improved secret counter evidence against ogres. One just simply needs to look at your guide and tally up the scenarios themselves and decide which works best for them. A good scenario calculator your guide is, objective truth it is not.

[isoka]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A good scenario calculator your guide is, objective truth it is not.

/clap

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But your facts aren’t objective, lol! Your guide just explains scenarios a shaman can encounter, then you state whether or not you think a particular racial is useful and then you tally up the results. This is 100% subjective. If you made a poll of every one of those scenarios and asked people to vote, you’d get vastly different results.

For instance I happen to feel that FSI is overall useless on raids in normal situations. We’re it that useful, people would be making a lot more ogres for raid purposes. Shamans aren’t getting focused down left and right trying to slow stuff, it’s rarely useful. And you even admitted iksars were the best raiding shaman. I actually wonder if you flipped that one to useful after thinking oh shit iksars won in my tally system.

With that one change of opinion in that scenario, that actually gives iksars the most points. So by your tally logic they are the best shaman now.

Please stop spreading your opinions as facts. Nobody needs to provide this new and improved secret counter evidence against ogres. One just simply needs to look at your guide and tally up the scenarios themselves and decide which works best for them. A good scenario calculator your guide is, objective truth it is not.

You clearly do not understand the definitions of subjectiive and objective. Troll regeneration, for example, is 100% factually quantifiable, as are it's applications in the game. Your opinion on it's utility does not change the actual utility you get from it.

If you think FSI is useless in raids, you are factually incorrect. It is useful, but I never claimed it was game breaking or necessary.

Yes, i did say Iksars are the best raiding Shaman. But you fail to grasp the basic idea that most people do not build Shamans to exclusively raid. If they did, my guide would read differently[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Best race simply means the race that works best for most people. I specifically mention the best races for other scenarios so other people get those facts too.

EDIT: To your point on my tally system, you are 100% correct that it is flawed right now. I havent figured out the best way to rank a tally point. Right now, all tallies are equal, but that is not correct. Iksars only win the tally because they get more stuff than other races. But getting more stuff does not mean they are better overall.

[Bondrake]

Lol. Absolutely pathetic. Actually taking time to write and argue about the guide being too long, bad, etc. It just shows how many people are so unhappy with their sad pathetic lives that they need to take their anger and frustration out on other people trying to help. How about you take a look at the guide he wrote and if you think it's shit or something else that's in your constant negative filled mind, stop reading it and move on.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You clearly do not understand the definitions of subjectiive and objective. Troll regeneration, for example, is 100% factually quantifiable, as are it's applications in the game. Your opinion on it's utility does not change the actual utility you get from it.

If you think FSI is useless in raids, you are factually incorrect. It is useful, but I never claimed it was game breaking or necessary.

Yes, i did say Iksars are the best raiding Shaman. But you fail to grasp the basic idea that most people do not build Shamans to exclusively raid. If they did, my guide would read differently[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Best race simply means the race that works best for most people. I specifically mention the best races for other scenarios so other people get those facts too.

You love to spin others words in your favor and claim they don’t know basic things like objective and subjective [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. I never claimed FSI is useless in raids. I just used your normal raid scenario in your guide which i feel it is useless for. I do agree it is useful in rare raid situations, not normal raid situations. Regen is factually quantifiable yes, and so are it’s applications but in each scenario you note it’s application but the subjectivity comes in when you say whether it’s useful or useless. This is your opinion, as others can easily come to their own conclusions on these as well.

It’s also funny that the iksar tally was equal to the ogre tally in your guide but you gave ogres the edge due to having a jbb over iksar regen/ac/fear necklace. You could ask a thousand people whether or not they’d take jbb over these iksar benefits, you’d get different results. Jbb has some uses at 60 but it’s mostly a 46-52 fun clicky item. And I wouldn’t be surprised If there’s math to support the uselessness of jbb over your regular shaman spell set at 60 for faster kills, but there’s no need to get into that.

Again, you provided a great “racial scenario calculator”, well done!

Edit: thank you for admitting your tally system is flawed! I look forward to seeing the revisions!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You love to spin others words in your favor and claim they don’t know basic things like objective and subjective [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. I never claimed FSI is useless in raids. I just used your normal raid scenario in your guide which i feel it is useless for. I do agree it is useful in rare raid situations, not normal raid situations. Regen is factually quantifiable yes, and so are it’s applications but in each scenario you note it’s application but the subjectivity comes in when you say whether it’s useful or useless. This is your opinion, as others can easily come to their own conclusions on these as well.

It’s also funny that the iksar tally was equal to the ogre tally in your guide but you gave ogres the edge due to having a jbb over iksar regen/ac/fear necklace. You could ask a thousand people whether or not they’d take jbb over these iksar benefits, you’d get different results. Jbb has some uses at 60 but it’s mostly a 46-52 fun clicky item. And I wouldn’t be surprised If there’s math to support the uselessness of jbb over your regular shaman spell set at 60 for faster kills, but there’s no need to get into that.

Again, you provided a great “racial scenario calculator”, well done!

Edit: thank you for admitting your tally system is flawed! I look forward to seeing the revisions!

I usually admit when I am wrong though[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] That simply tends to get lost in the sea of baseless accusations I can easily rebut, due to a lack of evidence.

It seems to me you havent played a Shaman, if you think JBB is only a leveling toy. It is still quite useful at 60. The resoning is very simple: You cannot buy or generate spell slots. JBB gives you one of your best Direct Damage spells for free, without a spell gem. This is WAY more valuable than a bit of damage mitigation, because Shamans already have one of the best damage mitigation systems in the game with Torpor and a 75% slow. See my Cliff Golems video for an example on how you can use JBB to do damage to a mob, while not staying on the top of their hate list. This allows your pet to tank summoning mobs, saving you WAY more HP than an Iksar would: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY

Also, I am not spinning your words at all. You said my guide is 100% subjective, when I literally have the undeniable math formula for Troll/Iksar Regeneration that never changes. So you are again factually incorrect on that point. You either do not understand what subjective and objective mean, or you are over generalizing to an absolute extreme.

[Sinbillibnis]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I usually admit when I am wrong though[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] That simply tends to get lost in the sea of baseless accusations I can easily rebut, due to a lack of evidence.

It seems to me you havent played a Shaman, if you think JBB is only a leveling toy. It is still quite useful at 60. The resoning is very simple: You cannot buy or generate spell slots. JBB gives you one of your best Direct Damage spells for free, without a spell gem. This is WAY more valuable than a bit of damage mitigation, because Shamans already have one of the best damage mitigation systems in the game with Torpor and a 75% slow. See my Cliff Golems video for an example on how you can use JBB to do damage to a mob, while not staying on the top of their hate list. This allows your pet to tank summoning mobs, saving you WAY more HP than an Iksar would: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY

I appreciate the time and effort you've put into both your guide and this conversation, as well as the passion you have for the class and game. I don't agree with a couple of comments here. Throughout this thread you have been defensive and counter argued whenever someone has a different opinion than yours. I'm not here to say you're wrong, but to assume someone hasn't played a shaman bc they have a different opinion of you is a bit narcissistic, a pattern you've shown throughout your responses

And while a very minor topic, I believe it's a stretch to indicate a jbb is a quite useful at 60, I'd agree it's more of a toy once you have torpor, pox and bane. Regarding your example, you can keep pox and bane rolling on a cliff golem without having agro the full time. Agro management between you and your pet on these types of mobs is heavily influenced by resists. If it's take 4+ casts to land slow, your pet is unlikely to pull agro throughout.

And if you're allowing your pet to hold agro the full time, sure you're saving your hit points, but only because you're extending the fight by restricting your damage output. What's the point? Can you do it that way, sure, it's a game, play it however you want. But if you're min/maxing and trying to minimize the dmg you take, you're doing so by minimizing your threat output, which to an extent means you're limiting your damage output or at least not maximizing your capabilities. If you're not using the item to maximize your capabilities, doesn't that mean it's more of an item for fun than need?

It's a fun item, I leaned on it heavily from 45 until 60, I loved my jbb and keep one just for fun. If I'm at a difficult camp or fighting a tough mob, 8 seconds to land a jbb is never going to be a priority over my other options.

I know you've put in far more time and done more as a shaman that I have, but i have been playing a shaman for a few years, so I like to think I at least have a fair opinion on the class. .

Sorry for any typos, on my phone and not taking the time to edit.