NPC Spawn Issue: Scout Charisa is on wrong spawn timer (evidence!)

[Rygar]

I am fairly certain on P99 that Scout Charisa in Western Wastes is on a 10hr timer with no variance, so click-fests are very annoying as having the exact second of the last hand in gives an advantage (i.e. start rapid spamming 5 seconds before as fast as you possibly can... don't get me started on auto-fire).

I was doing some unrelated research and stumbled across this gem mentioning specifics to the timer as well as variance:
http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...of-Benevolence

Some quick highlights:

Basicaly the Scout is on a static spawn timer that only depends on when she spawned last and not on when somebody last did the quest. The spawn timer is about 11.6 hours give or take about half an hour by my experience. So if she spawned at X hour on monday she will spawn at X - 0.9 hour on tuesday give or take about half an hour. (I have tested this info quite extensively and I am very confident of it)

Trying to make sense of this above formula, I'm assuming 11.6 hours is 11 hours and 36 minutes. Variance is +/- 30 minutes. Assuming she spawns at 3pm on Monday, using the 3pm - 0.9 hours (54 minutes), then that means she spawns at 2:06am on Tuesday. That is actually 11 hours and 6 minutes later, but I interpret that as the 30 minute variance is factored in (which is exactly 11 hours and 36 minutes, or 11.6 hours).

Basically on P99 raiding terms he was giving you a formula to determine when window starts (spawn time - 54 minutes), the window would last an hour.

I know some naysayers will laugh at this and point out the post is actually from 12/18/2001 (which is very, very early Luclin era), however there is plenty of commentary in the original post explaining that he had been doing this for a 'very, very long time' and even leveled a druid to get to the spawn point to track the window.

All indicators seem to point this was done during the Velious era, it is some of the most detailed info I found on the scout timer. The wayback page to Scout Charisa mentions someone saying she respawns every 10 hours, but the main quest page makes mentions of 10-12 without any details. The monkly-business post is the most clear cut evidence in my opinion so timer should be changed and variance added, this guy really put the time in during era to figure out how to farm this item.

If you choose to implement this, my old thread can be closed / resolved (although I think adding even a variance of 10 units to her spawn point is a fair 'custom content' to add to prevent auto-firing. It still rewards people willing to camp her spawn point. Same thing for Lodizal, but I digress...). That thread is here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...=scout+charisa

Here's hoping you implement this timer mechanic and make the spawn timer more like it was in era!

[Rygar]

FYI in case that link ever stops working, here is full transcript of the post:

I have done this quest many many times for myself and guildmates. I have been slow to post this info because this spawn is very very hotly contested and I feared added competition. GL all in your questing



Where it starts:



First to start this quest you need to find Comander Luez in Sky Shrine. He is a drake an can be found by zoning into SS from WL and taking 2 lefts. Go all the way to the end of the hall and you will find a room to the right. He is there. Ask for a task or something and get A tool bag from him.





Off to WW:



Now you have to find a female human enchanter scout(Scout Charisa) in WW. I don't know her exact location but if you zone out of SG, run out of the tunnel then turn around and go up past the tunnel she is in a small valley in the snow. If she has a bag in her hand it means somebody already gave her the tools for the quest and it can't be done again untill she respawns Turning in the tools causes some giants to spawn behind her by the water.



The pull:



The giants will be in a line along the beach with the captain off to the side of the line. Have a druid or ranger Harmonize each giant from Right to left and then harmonize the captain himself last. Then pull the captain and he should be solo. When I am there and the druid/ranger is inexperienced in the pull I will have them harmonize and then pull myself since if the harmony got messed up I can always FD and have the druid recast instead of having a dead druid.





The fight:



I suggest fighting in the tunnel since now everything in WW will assist anything else including CoV stuff attacking you for killing giants(I have heard this may have been fixed though...) The captain is dam near totaly MR and we have never been able to slow him. When fighting him in the tunnel be sure that you do NOT push him up the walls. If you do this he will warp under the world and procede to hit you from there while you get the message "you can not hit your target from here"



What you need:



Bare minimums a friend has done this fight all by himself At least 13 times with 5 computers using: 2 clerics, a warrior (55+ with defensive disc) a ranger(You can have other melee but harmony is a must!) and a shaman for haste and other buffs. If you have enough melee to kill him fast enough you may get away with having only one cleric and using another healer(s) to help with heals. (when my friend was doing this only his shaman was level 60 and the rest of his characters were 57 and below so all 60's is not necissisary if you know what you are doing)





The Scouts spawn timer:



Basicaly the Scout is on a static spawn timer that only depends on when she spawned last and not on when somebody last did the quest. The spawn timer is about 11.6 hours give or take about half an hour by my experience. So if she spawned at X hour on monday she will spawn at X - 0.9 hour on tuesday give or take about half an hour. (I have tested this info quite extensively and I am very confident of it)



I have made it a mission to find out her spawn time after a patch so I can track it. I have a druid I leveled to 14 spacificaly so I could bind her here and log on her to check the spawn(heh I once fell asleep on her and she deleveled to 11 before my compute crashed breaking the death cycle) I have had times where I didn't watch the spawn for most of a week and then came back when I figured she would spawn and was only an hour off.







The reward:



The captain will drop a disk that you give to the scout. In return she will give you the Robe of Benevolence(int casters only) and a note to take back to Captain Luez. Give her back the robe and she will give you the Bracer of Benevolence(melee classes only). If you give back the bracer she gives you the Talismin of Benevolence (wis casters only)



My guildleader has said that the who gets to do the quest is decided by need and who has participated in previous attempts at it. Monks gain a great deal from the bracer which weighs 0.1 stone yet has stats that make even warriors happy (which means monks lose controll of all bodily functions over this thing) and it is not lore so they can wear 2. But the quest is great for any class.



Stats on what you get.



Talisman of Benevolence

LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP

AC: +7 Wis: +15 Magic Resist: +12 Cold Resist: +12 HP: +38 Mana: +55

Weight: 0.1

Classes: Shaman Druid Cleric

Races: All Races

Inventory Slot: Secondary Melee

Can be equipped in the range slot

Velious Required: Yes



Bracer of Benevolence

MAGIC ITEM NO DROP

AC: +17 Str: +8 Sta: +8 Magic Resist: +12 Fire Resist: +5 Cold Resist: +12 HP: +30

Weight: 0.1

Classes: Ranger Paladin Shadowknight Bard Monk Rogue Warrior

Races: All Races

Inventory Slot: Wrist

Velious Required: Yes



Robe of Benevolence

LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP

AC: +17 Agi: -8 Dex: -8 Int: +10 Cha: +15 HP: +25 Mana: +80

Weight: 1.0

Classes: Wizard Magician Enchanter Necromancer

Races: Human High Elf Erudite Dark Elf Gnome Iksar

Inventory Slot: Chest

Velious Required: Yes





Additional Info:



I believe he has always summoned but a monster has to have been damaged to a certain point to start summoning.



I had no trouble keeping ahead of him with sow when I pulled him yesterday.



I have never tried to pull him without harmony but the past 2 times I did pull him I noticed that all the giants turned to face him when I pulled him.



When you FD he stays where he stops. He will never move again unless he is agroed again or untill he despawns 30 minutes after he was spawned.



I am going to try agro pulling him like you suggested next time to see how it works. If it doesn't then the giants will camp where I FD but I will try to kite them around enough to where I am far enough away that I can /q come back and have a druid harmonize.

[Rygar]

Haynar where are you..? This is begging for your nerf bat. Actual depiction of the work you do below:

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[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Trying to make sense of this above formula, I'm assuming 11.6 hours is 11 hours and 36 minutes. Variance is +/- 30 minutes. Assuming she spawns at 3pm on Monday, using the 3pm - 0.9 hours (54 minutes), then that means she spawns at 2:06am on Tuesday. That is actually 11 hours and 6 minutes later, but I interpret that as the 30 minute variance is factored in (which is exactly 11 hours and 36 minutes, or 11.6 hours).

Basically on P99 raiding terms he was giving you a formula to determine when window starts (spawn time - 54 minutes), the window would last an hour.

This info seems pretty dodgy without any real corroboration - it's very anecdotal, which is usually an indication that someone has no idea what they're talking about. For example, following his 0.9-hour window theory, one would expect the half-life of the window would occur at 11.45 hours, instead of 11.6 hours. I'd say it would make sense to go with 11.5 hours +/- 30 minutes, but it seems like he just recorded a few spawn times and used that very limited set of data to determine the spawn timer, which for all we know might not even begin when he thinks it does. He assumes the timer begins when Scout spawns, with the only alternative being "when somebody last did the quest", meaning when someone did the final turn-in. On P99, the timer resets when someone turns in the tools, which is neither of those - on live EQ circa 2001, this could account for the weird variance that he recorded, since people in those days weren't spam-clicking Scout's exact to-the-pixel spawn coordinates. So there would've been some amount of "give" time as people notified their guildmates that Scout was up and rallied their forces, etc., before finally turning in their tools resetting the timer.

It's very unlikely that Scout is a completely unique NPC whose spawn timer runs in perpetuity based on the sole variable of her own spawn time. While it's possible to do this even assuming the original EQ devs had the foresight to have her spawn timer automatically reset in the case that she's still up when the next spawn time rolls around, I highly doubt that that's how it functioned. Further, his druid was only leveled to 14, which can be done in a day or two, so it's unclear for how long he'd been tracking spawn times before arriving at his conclusions.

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The wayback page to Scout Charisa mentions someone saying she respawns every 10 hours, but the main quest page makes mentions of 10-12 without any details.

I am all for implementing some kind of variance window for Scout Charisa, however, simply for sanity's sake. 11 hours +/- 1 hour seems perfect to me.

[Rygar]

Appreciate your feedback PaulG, while i agree on some of your points I disagree on others.

For example, i don't think it is fair to dismiss his tracking and description of the spawn timer and come to the conclusion that he "had no idea what he is talking about". The info comes first hand from this guy who had clearly done the quest before, and by his own words has "made it his mission" to figure out the spawn timer. He is not repeating what he heard, clearly it is what he witnessed.

Really, the alternative "evidence" I've seen is one post claiming she is 10 hours, another claiming 10-12. No details, no specifics, no claims that they personally witnessed it, etc. I think the monkly business post is the most reliable we have to work with (unless someone can show differently).

I do agree that some of the respawn dynamics might be questionable about spawn vs hand-in, but history has shown there is a more than a few weird spawn dynamics in EQ (Pyzin, Raster of Guk, Stormfeather, Lodizal, etc). I just feel the monk would have been able to tell the difference. I'm thinking of he had high confidence on the window, he would have had friends and guildies pre-park there on at least a few occasions for a quick hand in, in which case he would give a shorter window if it really was 10 hours (obviously no one can prove that though, just conjecture).

Also not sure what you were talking about the half life of the window needing to be different, thought i wrote that out clearly showing he factored in the 30 minute variance. Where is my math off specifically? Maybe it is, and I'm just having a brain fart.

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For example, i don't think it is fair to dismiss his tracking and description of the spawn timer and come to the conclusion that he "had no idea what he is talking about".

Well, I simply posit the possibility that he has no idea what he's talking about, which isn't as much of a slight against him as it sounds. I'd at least entertain that idea, because chances are this person, like myself, was of high school age in 2001 and nowhere near fully psychologically developed. If I attempted to decode Scout Charisa's spawn mechanics when I was a 16-year-old, the results would've been a horrorshow. It's certainly possible he was starting from the false premise of the spawn timer beginning at her spawn time, and then attempted to fit a window to the varying spawn times that followed.

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The info comes first hand from this guy who had clearly done the quest before, and by his own words has "made it his mission" to figure out the spawn timer. He is not repeating what he heard, clearly it is what he witnessed.

Right, anecdotal evidence is a good starting point to then develop a hypothesis from first principles. He stopped at anecdotal evidence, but anecdotal evidence is still better than no evidence. He probably did the quest an inordinate amount of times, as he claimed, but wasn't paying close enough attention to spawn mechanics to formulate a coherent hypothesis. Or, it's possible he was paying close attention while being misinformed as to when the timer begins, thus ending up with wonky and arbitrary numbers like 11.6 hours with a 0.9-hour long window. This could be wrong, of course - no other game is as notorious for its wonkiness and arbitrariness as EQ.

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Really, the alternative "evidence" I've seen is one post claiming she is 10 hours, another claiming 10-12. No details, no specifics, no claims that they personally witnessed it, etc. I think the monkly business post is the most reliable we have to work with (unless someone can show differently).

Apr 25 2001 at 3:35 PM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...98823093683675]:

Not sure if she is a triggered mob, think she is on more like a 12hour+ timer once server come up, or killed.

May 29 2001 at 2:10 AM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...99112023667883]:

She is on a 12 hour spawn clock.

Jul 01 2001 at 8:41 PM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...99403810580687]:

12 hours between quests.

Jul 24 2001 at 5:29 AM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...99597054222215]:

... scout is on 12 hrs respawn cloak,when shes holding a bag,this means someone has already done this,so come back 12 hrs later and do it.

Aug 10 2001 at 9:26 PM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...99749681331457]:

The spawn time on the scout is actually about 10-11 hours, you time it from the time you turn in the bag to the time she pops again.

Unrelated, but interesting:

Apr 23 2001 at 9:20 PM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...98807882037149]:

She is however not always up and takes awhile to spawn after patch.

Now slightly after Luclin's release.

Dec 26 2001 at 6:45 PM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...00941031116552]:

I have noted a 10 to 10.5 respawn time on the Scout.

Jan 31 2002 at 9:16 AM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...01248286637909]:

Spawn time is 11 hours ...

Feb 18 2002 at 9:38 PM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...01408626522893]:

It is 10 hours from depspawning of Charisa. Usually about 10 and a half hours after you hand toolkit in.

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do agree that some of the respawn dynamics might be questionable about spawn vs hand-in, but history has shown there is a more than a few weird spawn dynamics in EQ (Pyzin, Raster of Guk, Stormfeather, Lodizal, etc).

Definitely - now that I'm thinking about it, there are tons of completely unique spawn cycles throughout EQ, although not a single one to my knowledge operates on its own spawn time as its respawn trigger. Even Zordak Ragefire, which is always in window while Nagafen isn't up, restarts its spawn cycle upon receiving the Shimmering Pearl. Butler Syncall and Maid Issis are also good examples of perpetual spawn cycles, but even those use the time of day as respawn triggers.

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also not sure what you were talking about the half life of the window needing to be different, thought i wrote that out clearly showing he factored in the 30 minute variance. Where is my math off specifically? Maybe it is, and I'm just having a brain fart.

Your math was fine, I was merely pointing out the mismatch between Serack's 11.6-hour respawn time and 0.9-hour window, but I'm still not sure how to interpret his data being that it's so poorly described. When I posted before I was thinking "give or take about half an hour" was the 54-minute window, but after rereading it I'm thinking he means the window extends about 30 minutes beyond or before 54 minutes, which would give you a 114-minute (1 hour and 54 minutes) window with +/- 30 minutes factored in. So from 2:06 a.m. to 4:00 a.m., using your example.

The way he describes his findings is super confusing to me because I don't really distinguish a window from variance: the variance is the window, or rather the variance sets the parameters of the window. Following this logic, you can still make some amount of sense out of a 54-minute window, which would be a variance of +/- 27 minutes; "about half an hour". And following that rabbit hole even further, you'd subtract 27 minutes from 11.6 hours and get 11 hours and 9 minutes. Another possibility is that he was offering 11.6 hours as the half-time of the window, and figured his readers would know that his 54-minute window is what he meant when he said "give or take about half an hour".

[paulgiamatti]

Here are a couple other takeaways from this thread, in case any devs are reading:

Apr 23 2001 at 9:20 PM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...98807882037149]:

She is however not always up and takes awhile to spawn after patch.

Apr 25 2001 at 3:35 PM [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...98823093683675]:

think she is on more like a 12hour+ timer once server come up, or killed.

So it sounds like a script should be written to just depop Charisa upon server up, resetting the timer. Not sure if that's already the case or not - haven't attempted Scout since 2015.

Also:

01-14-2002, 06:46 AM [http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ll=1#post97201]:

I've heard many tales of people handing in when amiable and getting no reward.

01-14-2002, 06:53 AM [http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ll=1#post97202]:

The amiable faction you need is basically kindly-but-not-quite amiable. Kindly+ is a good bet, if you want to be safe.

Again, not entirely sure if this is the case on P99, but I think it's safe to assume these comments are correct for our era despite being slightly post-Luclin. It sounds like the only time they changed Skyshrine quest faction requirements was after the Skyshrine revamp:

12-16-2002, 04:27 AM [http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ll=1#post97207]:

dont know if its new or not but WARMLY is required after the skyshrine revamp to get the tools from commander luez.

[Rygar]

bump for variance (classic)

[Rygar]

Bump... variance would make this item that is already easy to obtain, a slight bit more difficult and actually award people who put slightly more effort in (as opposed to logging in the second she is due to spawn due to no variance).

Evidence looks solid, please advise.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Konfetti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This has been a roll for quite a while now (I think dating back to before you started this post) to combat the click shitshow that is was. Why recreate this headache?

And there's also people stating a 24h respawn in that thread. Why not pound your fist for that?

What you've got is a bunch of people all stating different things, which really isn't solid evidence. Solid evidence would be someone noting numerous spawn/turn in/despawn times in a row. Don't try and force change with flimsy evidence for the sake of change.

First of all, this is one of the only posts where it is a true first hand account of spawn time, not just a one line blurb that we have no clue if it is second hand information. The post is the most descriptive first hand account.

Secondly, he notes that he did do multiple spawn times and documented the results to determine the timer, he just didn't post his spreadsheet is all.

Thirdly, as you see there are multiple discrepancies in spawn times posted (10, 11, 12, 24, etc), so how could you really make an argument for just one of those without concluding she had a type of variance?

Lastly, i really don't care anymore if it is a roll or a click fest, just getting down to accurate spawn dynamics. 10hr exact respawn is convenient for folks, i just don't believe that was how she spawned after reading this over and seeing the other spawn timers posted.