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Old 10-07-2022, 12:29 AM
Vsai Vsai is offline
Sarnak


Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 367
Default Solon's Bewitching Bravura level restriction

Found a few sources for this and a comment citing 55 as the level cap, not 51 that it was later changed to.

Source: Casters realm spell entry
Date: May 2001 (data matches until well after timeline)

http://web.archive.org/web/200105220...ll.asp?Id=1057

Comment from the same link
Date: Aug 2001

"LEVEL 55 MOBS, By Tarbaand (6/28/2001)

This song can charm creatures up to level 55. Charm is an incredibly powerful ability, and we can charm creatures up to level 39 for free. A fiftieth level bard with no gear that boosts mana will probably have around 700 mana. Thats 35 charms, and if they last an average of 5 seconds (including resists). Consider the devestation a lvl 55 mob can dish out in 3 minutes, and consider that being done to your enemies instead of your party. No we cant do it often, but its not like we have anything else to spend our mana on"


Source: EQDiva
Date: April 2001

https://web.archive.org/web/20010420...gs.asp?song=41

"Description: Charms target up to 18 seconds. Lowers target's magic resistance. This is the upgrade to Solon's Song of the Sirens. Only works on mobs below level 55."

Going to need to do some more source work on this one I think as there is nothing I see in the SPDATs that references there is a level restriction.
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  #2  
Old 10-07-2022, 08:13 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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https://web.archive.org/web/20010301...s/brd/brd.html

08:32:24 Mar 01, 2001

Quote:
LEVEL-39 Song
名称 Solon's Bewitching Bravura
対象 一体 Skill Wind Mana 20
対象をCharm (LV55のMobまで)
https://web.archive.org/web/20021113..._printable.htm

Quote:
39

Solon's Bewitching Bravura

20

3

Wind

18 second NPC charm, 55 Lv max NPC

https://web.archive.org/web/20011220...gs.asp?song=45

Quote:
Charm limited to lvl 51 - 1/5/02 1:10:29 PM
~ Reevlon-Lanys
Tested and found out the charm is only limited to lvl 51 and below mobs.

Kocho ~ You are correct, I will change this next time I do some site editing. This was one of the questions I had forever, and now that I'm 56, I see for myself it doesn't work on mobs higher than 51.
Quote:
level limit changed? - 11/26/01 1:13:10 AM
~ Larrycor
I was in kael a few nights ago.
Doing what I do and charm adds and have them fight,
well I get to 53 and I think 52 level giants and it gave me the message.

"this creature is to high to be charmed"
or something like that.

Did they change level limit on mobs?
or am I just crazy?
Quote:
PvP Usage - 9/26/01 10:52:57 PM
~ Trewayn Ffiate
This song is not capped for PvP usage and will work on any PC of any lvl, up to and including 60, if it is not resisted.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010312...g/brdsong.html

16:05:24 Mar 12, 2001

Quote:
39 Solon's Bewitching Bravura Target: Charm ~ mobs < your current lvl, but no higher than lvl 51 Requires 20 Mana Wind KEL, FV

The following link automatically downloads a file labeled "banner.inc".

https://web.archive.org/web/20000519...ML/000422.html

Quote:
Author Topic: Allure vs Solon's Bewitching Bravura
Atropo of Xegony
Veteran Poster
Posts: 39
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-08-2000 01:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Atropo of Xegony Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Allure
Level: 49
Mana: 245
Actual Effects: Convert Target to Pet. Level Limit 50.
Solon's Bewitching Bravura.
Level: 45
Mana: 5
Song Type: Wind, required.
Actual Effects: Target: Charm (Max Level 55)..

I don't mind bards getting charm but why they get this at lvl 45 and can use it up to level 55 mobs. We get Allure at 49, and pet's level is capped at 50. Then we have to wait till lvl 53 until we get another charm spell to use for lvl 50+ mobs.

Think Verant at least needs to raise the pet cap to lvl 55 as well.
Quote:
Hika
Veteran Poster
Posts: 72
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 04-09-2000 02:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Hika Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Atropo of Xegony:
Allure
Level: 49
Mana: 245
Actual Effects: Convert Target to Pet. Level Limit 50.
Allure's limit is at least level 51. I charm yellow-to-50 NPCs all the time.


quote:

Solon's Bewitching Bravura.
Level: 45
Mana: 5
Song Type: Wind, required.
Actual Effects: Target: Charm (Max Level 55)..
Well two things about this. a) I'm not sure how they're extracting the level limit, but it probably is 55. b) my spdat.eff lists this song as a level 39 song, not level 45 as castersrealm lists it. So my parser (or eqcaster's) is broken.


However, as for the issue, I'd feel a lot better if this song were level 49 (bards don't have a level 49 song anyway) with a level 55 NPC charm limit. It would step a bit on Allure's limit, but then, Allure's limit should be 53 anyway, not 51. By the time we hit 53, we should be getting new charms.

-- Hika

https://web.archive.org/web/20020113....asp?Spell=259

Quote:
SOLON'S BEWITCHING BRAVURA

Level

39

Mana

20

Skill

Wind (not required)

Researchable?

No

Maximum Duration

18 seconds

Casting Time

Instant

Recast Time

Instant

Required Components

None

Vendors

Kelethin Bard guild

Spell Description

Solon's Bewitching Bravura is the upgrade to Solon's Song of the Sirens. It will charm a creature for up to 18 seconds. It will only work on creatures below level 55 and will make the creature highly aggro on you once the song's effect wears off. Useful to break spawns or when fighting more than one creature at once.

Player Rating (1-10)

10 (average of 1 votes)

https://web.archive.org/web/20011221...rm.asp?print=t

Quote:
Solon's Bewitching Bravura (39)
At level 39, you will receive your next Charm song upgrade - Solon's Bewitching Bravura. This song charms target up to 18 seconds and also lowers their magic resistance (enhanced by using a wind instrument). It is such a powerful song at a bard's disposal, that is required 20 mana, which can go down pretty quickly actually. This Charm song upgrade only works on mobs below level 55. When you first get this song, you will get the usual resists alot, and your mana will go down quickly so don't be afraid to swap it out for your level 27 Charm song, it will still work on the blue mobs you are fighting.
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  #3  
Old 10-08-2022, 08:27 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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https://web.archive.org/web/20010223...ML/057055.html

Quote:
MellodieBosque
Station Member posted 02-12-2001 08:14 AM
A handy summary of my post: five reasons why and how a bard is not balanced after level 50 and what can be done about it.

...

4. The mesmerize resistant creatures in Velious have changed the dynamics of crowd control immensely. Charm is the prefered method of crowd control in Kael and other such places. However, bards cannot charm anything of significant level (it is possibly capped at level 55, but I am not positive about that) and charming takes huge amounts of mana. As a bard, I could be incredibly useful for crowd control if I could charm giants deep in Kael Drakkel. But I can't because of the level limit. I would suggest that bards get a charm song at level 50 or 51 that did not require mana (so that crowd control doesn't require the bard to sit for mana regen!) and could be used on anything blue or green (so bard soloing is not a significant issue). And while the programmers are at it, *pleeeeease* add no-charm tags to gods, major dragons, and any other powerful beings which are just like the no-mez tags on giants, some golems, cyclops, etc. Charming a god is funny, but it isn't balanced at all.
Quote:
Dalakar_Daystar
Station Member posted 02-12-2001 08:47 AM
<<pleeeeease* add no-charm tags to gods, major dragons, and any other powerful beings which are just like the no-mez tags on giants, some golems, cyclops, etc. Charming a god is funny, but it isn't balanced at all.>>
Ah, Which brings me to a point I forgot in my wishlist above:

-Bard Mez and 39 Charm will now work on any Mob within a decent level range of the singer. The previous cap of level 51 (I think that's the current level cap) has been removed. If any Mob is not meant to be charmed, they are now flagged as such. Expect this flag on Gods, Dragon Bosses such as Vox, Nagafen, Gorenaire, etc, and certain other monsters

https://web.archive.org/web/20010302.../057055-3.html

Quote:
Desbarolis
Station Member posted 02-14-2001 02:29 PM
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Desbarolis, whatever you might say about charming in dungeons, etc, an Enchanter can do it CC better. There is no debating that.
I have been playing a Bard in this game since mid-beta 3..well over 3 years now, and until last May when the 39 charm song was added, Bard crowd control was limited to the low levels.

It is nice to have a higher level charm ability now, but it has hardly been some class defining Bardic role in this game like you want to make it out to be.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Fair enough, but when I started playing the game, bards had the ability to be good at crowd control and whatnot. (btw, cap on charm is lifted, rumor has it)

Personally I rather like being able to deal high amounts of damage with just songs, but it annoys me a little that our songs go up at the exact same rate (damage-wise) as they did pre-level 50, whereas everyone else's power is increasing by much larger amounts post 50.

Certainly a wizard is in the same boat post 50, as their spells are highly resisted, and it takes them a very long time to regenerate their mana. In velious, their nearly useless against the big stuff.

As for it being a class defining trait, at the outset of the game, your completely accurate that it was not something that was originally intended. But as new things are added, it becomes a class defining trait, like it or not. The cap on charm at 51 I was unaware of, but being able to do crowd control was a very good thing in my eyes.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010204...ML/053745.html

Quote:
Keadaian
Station Member posted 01-31-2001 07:21 PM
I'm going to assume that by balanced, you mean that there is a compelling reason to include a class in a group. Based on that assumption, what are the compelling reasons to invite a player into a group?

...

However, what is the compelling reason to include a lvl 50+ bard into a group?
1. Damage doer: Bards can not match the output of a monk, rogue, wizard, warrior, SK, necro, druid, or mage. Probably not a shaman either. Against undead paladins will also outdamage us.
2. Damage taker: Uhhh don't think I need to detail this one :P
3. Crowd control: Our charm hard caps at lvl 51 mobs. Our aoe mezz is worthless and our single target mezz, while improved for the mid range bard, becomes essentialy a non viable solution at this lvl. Enchanters are NOT the only way to go, but they are the primary means of crowd control at higher lvls. Even necro's get a better crowd control than we do.

https://web.archive.org/web/20001208.../024701-2.html

Quote:
Pequod
Station Member posted 10-24-2000 12:03 PM
"Verant sure does love bards."
Not so. Ibashbards usually ignored us, nerfed us, or said we were broken as intended (to generalize).

"I guess the fact that they can solo blues at level 50 with little or NO health loss just isn't enough."

With luck, patience, and a willinness to induce carpal-tunnel syndrome, we MAY be able to solo a handful of blues per hour. I don't solo much (1-25 was when I did the lion's share of my solo play), as I picked a support class for a reason.

"Go ahead and step them further over the enchanter line by letting them mez."

Well, we can't really Mez now. I used to Mez with good results back in Cazic (30-35), but found results to be less than impressive as I moved through the 40s. We are so far from anything remotly resembling Enchanters' wonderful CC abilities that your assertion is simply absurd. Can we park a mob? Yes. We will take an awful beating but we can park or charm an extra in a pull of two. Our second charm is capped at 51, so don't try this too deep in the toughest dungeons. Bards don't want to step on Enchanters' toes. We simply want our single-target Mez line to work to the degree that maybe 3 mobs can be mezzed at the expense of all other songs.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010417...ve/Apr2000.htm

Quote:
4/19 7:30am - Gordon responds:
Abashi
Station Member posted 04-18-2000 08:49 PM

4/18 7:30am - Updated Solon's Bewitching Bravura it is now limited like other charm songs with a 10 level limit.

https://web.archive.org/web/20001102...56757174.shtml

Quote:
New bard charm song costs mana
by Chris - 04/20/00 05:51 EST
And below is the reason.
>>>Now the new Bard charm (Bravura) costs mana. How much mana?
The new song is quite a bit more powerful than the old one. I think that once people get a chance to play with it for a while they'll agree. It is powerful enough that we didn't want people to be able to cast it in perpetuity. That's why mana was added to it.

-Gordon

https://web.archive.org/web/20011109...e/July2000.htm

Quote:
7/17 1:45pm - Another interesting charm tidbit from the Stations new Bug board, not sure if this effects Solon's Bewitching Bravura or not. But it may account for the conflicting reports of what the cap is for Bravura.
Quote:
Author Topic: Enchanter spell bugged.
_Hobart_
Station Member posted 07-13-2000 02:43 PM


Ok, for the post 50 charm line of spells.
They work different on Kunark then they do on Norrath. They are made so you cannot charm creatures higher then level 52 on Norrath. They do however work on much higher creatures in Kunark. That's all the info I can provide.

Hobart

This is NOT a bug
Quote:
7/17 11:45am - Ester the Tester makes her first appearance on the Song Analysis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. Here is a quote from here regarding Iksar NPCs and charm:

Author Topic: Iksar can't be charmed... Bug?
Serreneliss
Station Member posted 07-13-2000 01:16 AM


I have battled the Iksar Exiles (about level 27 npcs) in Warslilks woods and they ALWAYS resist charm. I have also confirmed with other Enchanters of level 50+ that have been completely unable to charm even the lowest level Iksar npcs.
Is this intentional? Or a bug?

If it is intentional, may I humbly request a message other than resist be activated when you attempt to charm the Iksar.

If I had heard:
"Your spell has no effect on this creature"
instead of the basic resist message then I wouldn't have died nearly so many times trying. =)

EsterTheTester
Station Member posted 07-13-2000 01:58 PM

Not a bug, feature =)
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  #4  
Old 10-10-2022, 03:55 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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https://web.archive.org/web/20031229...=2189&start=25

Quote:
RE: Poxxed butwhipe Reply...
Posted @ Tue, Jun 26th 3:28 PM 2001
By: Reegor
303 posts
Score: Default [1.63]
Know what's funny? When that charm breaks on that highly resistant level 55 mob and he starts stomping on you and you try to run away with Selo's song of travel.... but..... oh yeah. He's level 55 and summons you and beats on you some more. I am not sure even many level 60 bards have the balls to try to charm even a weak level 55 (like Doom). Hate to see the resist rate on that. Please don't get into 'my pet is bigger than your pet' pissing contests. In that exact senerio, you would most likely get owned really hard. After turning on you and ripping your head off, it would promptly eat the necro as well.


Lich Reegor Mortees
scaled Arch Lich
E'Ci
Boo Boo is my lengthy motsa ball.
Quote:
1 Replies
RE: Poxxed butwhipe Reply...
Posted @ Sat, Mar 9th 5:53 PM 2002
By: Saania
Scholar
99 posts
Score: Default [2.05]
your post would be very nice ... if bards' charm level limit wasnt 51 .... as it is actually.


Majax Lotz (High Elf Magician) | Saania MorningDew (Human bard) | Amam Yhcuo (High Elf Cleric)
<Lords of the Zodiac>
Solusek Ro
Quote:
1 Replies
RE: Poxxed butwhipe Reply...
Posted @ Thu, Jun 6th 11:33 AM 2002
By: Borogove
36 posts
Score: Excellent [4.50]
Actually, the level limit of Solon's Bewitching Bravura is 55.
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  #5  
Old 10-12-2022, 03:23 PM
Dolalin Dolalin is offline
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Iksar NPCs should not be charmable. I made a bug about that awhile ago. Even replicated it on Live.
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  #6  
Old 10-12-2022, 11:43 PM
Zuranthium Zuranthium is offline
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Solon's Bewitching Bravura initially went up to Level 55 and was also unresistible, Bards were able to charm Gods. After that was discovered it quickly got nerfed; the devs may have dropped the max level to 51 when also changing the unresistible part.
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  #7  
Old 10-13-2022, 05:12 AM
Vsai Vsai is offline
Sarnak


Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 367
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February 2001: consolidated information says level cap was lifted. (Now lvl 55) This continues until well into 2002.
April 2000: The original version is unresistable, used on gods and nerfed in days. Level limit was introduced and cap moved to 51.(This remains in place until Jan 2001)
Last edited by Vsai; 10-13-2022 at 05:16 AM..
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2022, 01:12 PM
Flexin Flexin is offline
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Bumping this, nilbog please your opinion? You gave us 25 mob limits give us our level 55 charm limit ty
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2022, 02:20 AM
PabloEdvardo PabloEdvardo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flexin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Bumping this, nilbog please your opinion? You gave us 25 mob limits give us our level 55 charm limit ty
changes which were deemed too powerful and exploitative are unlikely to be implemented in p99, especially when they have a very short time in-era anyway

another example would be that Cazic Thule 1.0 (The God) was fearable, but implementing that on p99 would make it trivial
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2022, 12:49 PM
Vsai Vsai is offline
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I don't think you're following the evidence. This was in from February 2001 (2 months into Velious) until well past our ending timeline of November/December 2001. This is not a trivial amount of time. Also, this is the same song that is currently in the game but with a higher-level limit. This isn't a game-breaking exploitative change where the health of the server has to come first. This is a classic well-sourced correction.
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