A sincere and loving red recruitment thread

[Faerie]

No trolling, storytelling awesomeness [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=140636

Originally Posted by Pudge

yes storytime is always appreciated.

i remember when i first rolled feeling very nervous about attacking anybody. one day in oasis between killing gators i spotted a little gnome in purple running from a croc, it was clearly going to kill him as he starting running all slow-like. so i as i watched him helplessly running toward me, I thought to myself "im a ROGUE damnit, i should be killing people!" and in this moment of passion, i stabbed the little gnome in the back. his body crumpled and the gator walked away, and i looted the corpse. 14 platinum! omg this guy was walking around with 14 platinum?

then i got some tells, not hate tells but asking why i had killed him. he sounded so sad that i felt bad for him. i lied and told him i had killed him to save him from the exp loss. when he got back, he asked for his plat and i reluctantly returned it. after the exchange, we decided to group together to kill some of those nasty crocs. and from then on we were best friends in EQ, leveling and making chars together for basically years. he told me later that that 14 plat was all the money he owned, none in the bank. and that if i had just killed him and taken it he probably would have quit soon after. he had no friends in EQ, unlike me who played with my brothers. and i guess 14 plat was a lot to lose back in the day, when that was his life savings

Originally Posted by Faerie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol! It's awesome how enemies become friends, and vice versa in open-ended MMOs like EQ pvp. This is really a big part of the reason that pvp servers are so much more fun than blue servers. I wish the bluebies here on p99 understood that, so we could have a truly amazing gaming experience with intricate social workings, or whatever.

[username17]

I tried it. It was like playing a single player RPG. No thanks.

[Swish]

I've met a few low levels on red that I've given a port to or helped out in some other small way... there's potential for them to stick around, the problem is finding groups at all levels.

Biggest problem for me as a Euro player is the off-peak population. Solo or gtfo etc.

[Sarajo]

I don't play on red because despite such a bromantic tale full of feels we all want to feel, that experience is way outside of the norm. There are a few aspects of playing red that I just can't connect with, but hopefully this post won't be as foreign to you as the red concept is to me.

1) Ganking, or attacking someone who is fighting something else. Other than the lie in this story about "I was SAVING you from XP loss!", if it were true, there is no reason to do this.
a) "but they might be carrying a lot of money!" And what makes you think that worse reciprocation will not, or should not, happen to you for such a shallow and fleeting reason?
b) "pvp happened, get over it" How is that pvp? It was a one-sided fight against someone who couldn't fight back, and you attacked because you were worried about your self-image as a rogue? So in the end, it was: "how I feel about myself is important enough to fuck over total strangers and greatly inconvenience them", and real life is full enough of that kind of scrotewank behavior. No thank you.
c) "Attacking someone who is fighting something else is a legit strat and everyone does it" I remember Brad McQuaid talking in that History of EverQuest TV special about why PVP servers were added: some gamers didn't feel that you could be "the best on the server" unless you could compete directly with other players in combat. Yes, that idea is exciting and deserves a whole rewrite of EQ from the ground up, I agree. However... it has never been implemented successfully. None of the Zek servers could agree on a rule set, because it is still a PVE game with PVP elements shoehorned into it. Every attempt to make this work was ruined by enterprising bullies. Dont let players attack anyone outside of 5 levels up/down range? No problem, just bot a high level healer and kill people your own level. Teams pvp? Just look at server census data and roll the most popular team. Blue name until level 5 on Rallos Zek? Use this to train sand giants on evils like Fansy. Or cry in the forums about it till Fansy (and the rest of the lowbies) get nerfed.

2) While I'm at it: where is the mental chess match pvp promises? "when fighting a caster, do ___. When fighting a melee DPS, do ___" It never works out that way; all you get is 2 of whatever fighting 1 of whatever. Or player A attacking player B, losing, then crying to guild because player A plays the victim saying they got ganked and camped even though they were the aggressor. Instead of some kind of mental activity it becomes a game of "who is part of the bigger pack of easily manipulated mediocre players". Then it's endless, recursive, fractal escalation as both sides call in more and more players, camping corpses and zone lines, until one side begs for a loot & scoot or everyone gets tired and goes to bed. How can no one see the cause & effect of just attacking some else leading to escalation?
a) How do you people get anything done with the constant interruptions?
b) how annoying is it to have a raid planned but instead everything disintegrates into a brawl at the zone entrance?
c) The recruitment threads offering high-level loot and PLing and touting the 1.25*XP rate really focus on how fast it will be to get to the part of the game just beyond the annoying part, but completely ignores the fact that having a red name is like saying "I really wish someone would interrupt and attack me right now" and "please interrupt me while I am progressing toward a goal of becoming stronger" and "if you don't kill me a bunch of times I might get XP and become high enough level to become a threat to you". Not a productive use of time just dangling yourself out there when you are new on the server and almost everyone else has a level 60 alt.

So once again, after being disappointed with the let-down that is PVP in a fantasy MMO, where fights should be honorable and worth bragging about, and duels provide a more player versus player game than a red server ever could, I must decline the recruitment. That was a cool story, though. I was moved. But even though the story was about how PVP leads to trust and sympathy and friendship and social activity, history has always shown us that it's more about betraying all of that so you can get someone to group with you and cast Bind Affinity on them to ruin their firepots bind point then call your friends to kill the helpless victim over and over. It is never a fair fight, and it is almost always one-sided, and I don't understand how anyone could willingly enter into a place like that.

Good luck with your recruitment. I hope you find people who will be truly happy there, as many already are, but I also hope that no one is brought over for all of the wrong reasons and illusions of friendship to experience the years of letdown I have.

[I](typed on my phone because I feel that strongly about it. And it was that good of a story. It deserved a reply)/I]

[Solb]

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't play on red because despite such a bromantic tale full of feels we all want to feel, that experience is way outside of the norm. There are a few aspects of playing red that I just can't connect with, but hopefully this post won't be as foreign to you as the red concept is to me.

1) Ganking, or attacking someone who is fighting something else. Other than the lie in this story about "I was SAVING you from XP loss!", if it were true, there is no reason to do this.
a) "but they might be carrying a lot of money!" And what makes you think that worse reciprocation will not, or should not, happen to you for such a shallow and fleeting reason?
b) "pvp happened, get over it" How is that pvp? It was a one-sided fight against someone who couldn't fight back, and you attacked because you were worried about your self-image as a rogue? So in the end, it was: "how I feel about myself is important enough to fuck over total strangers and greatly inconvenience them", and real life is full enough of that kind of scrotewank behavior. No thank you.
c) "Attacking someone who is fighting something else is a legit strat and everyone does it" I remember Brad McQuaid talking in that History of EverQuest TV special about why PVP servers were added: some gamers didn't feel that you could be "the best on the server" unless you could compete directly with other players in combat. Yes, that idea is exciting and deserves a whole rewrite of EQ from the ground up, I agree. However... it has never been implemented successfully. None of the Zek servers could agree on a rule set, because it is still a PVE game with PVP elements shoehorned into it. Every attempt to make this work was ruined by enterprising bullies. Dont let players attack anyone outside of 5 levels up/down range? No problem, just bot a high level healer and kill people your own level. Teams pvp? Just look at server census data and roll the most popular team. Blue name until level 5 on Rallos Zek? Use this to train sand giants on evils like Fansy. Or cry in the forums about it till Fansy (and the rest of the lowbies) get nerfed.

2) While I'm at it: where is the mental chess match pvp promises? "when fighting a caster, do ___. When fighting a melee DPS, do ___" It never works out that way; all you get is 2 of whatever fighting 1 of whatever. Or player A attacking player B, losing, then crying to guild because player A plays the victim saying they got ganked and camped even though they were the aggressor. Instead of some kind of mental activity it becomes a game of "who is part of the bigger pack of easily manipulated mediocre players". Then it's endless, recursive, fractal escalation as both sides call in more and more players, camping corpses and zone lines, until one side begs for a loot & scoot or everyone gets tired and goes to bed. How can no one see the cause & effect of just attacking some else leading to escalation?
a) How do you people get anything done with the constant interruptions?
b) how annoying is it to have a raid planned but instead everything disintegrates into a brawl at the zone entrance?
c) The recruitment threads offering high-level loot and PLing and touting the 1.25*XP rate really focus on how fast it will be to get to the part of the game just beyond the annoying part, but completely ignores the fact that having a red name is like saying "I really wish someone would interrupt and attack me right now" and "please interrupt me while I am progressing toward a goal of becoming stronger" and "if you don't kill me a bunch of times I might get XP and become high enough level to become a threat to you". Not a productive use of time just dangling yourself out there when you are new on the server and almost everyone else has a level 60 alt.

So once again, after being disappointed with the let-down that is PVP in a fantasy MMO, where fights should be honorable and worth bragging about, and duels provide a more player versus player game than a red server ever could, I must decline the recruitment. That was a cool story, though. I was moved. But even though the story was about how PVP leads to trust and sympathy and friendship and social activity, history has always shown us that it's more about betraying all of that so you can get someone to group with you and cast Bind Affinity on them to ruin their firepots bind point then call your friends to kill the helpless victim over and over. It is never a fair fight, and it is almost always one-sided, and I don't understand how anyone could willingly enter into a place like that.

Good luck with your recruitment. I hope you find people who will be truly happy there, as many already are, but I also hope that no one is brought over for all of the wrong reasons and illusions of friendship to experience the years of letdown I have.

[I](typed on my phone because I feel that strongly about it. And it was that good of a story. It deserved a reply)/I]

I think you simply don't like what PVP adds to a MMO.

Constant wondering if someone might attack you adds an element to the game, for some a bad element to others more challenge.

They removed the bonus XP by the way.

[jarshale]

I tried red, leveled an enchanter to about 2 or 3, then was repeatedly corpse camped by some twinked mages for a few hours and gave up. 0/10 would not play again.

[Solb]

Well, XP seems to have been altered on Red, many people saying it has not the bonus as before, but according to Derubael it's working as intended. I don't know.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't play on red because despite such a bromantic tale full of feels we all want to feel, that experience is way outside of the norm. There are a few aspects of playing red that I just can't connect with, but hopefully this post won't be as foreign to you as the red concept is to me.

I really should be doing schoolwork, but I wanted to reply to this.

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) Ganking, or attacking someone who is fighting something else. Other than the lie in this story about "I was SAVING you from XP loss!", if it were true, there is no reason to do this.

Agree 100% with this! On my live server (Vallon Zek best Zek) it was considered bad form to attack people while they were dealing with NPCs, because xp loss was mean. People that were well-known for such vile acts were not given a chance at joining a reputable guild. We waiting until all the NPCs were dead, then engaged. This is one of the ways I really wish Red99 was different than it is, but the other live servers all seemed to be okay with it and some compromises always must be made. The experience bonus (which has not been removed! trolls need to stop trying to hurt server population) makes up for this some. It can be annoying, but this is EQ and not WoW. EQ is difficult, as evidenced by the giants and high level griffons wandering around noob zones on both servers. You should expect to be taken by surprise every now and again, and once more this is true on blue as well.

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

a) "but they might be carrying a lot of money!" And what makes you think that worse reciprocation will not, or should not, happen to you for such a shallow and fleeting reason?

I don't think there exists a player on red that doesn't expect their money to be taken. Generally speaking, it's just small amounts because people bank frequently. Certain people seemed to bank a lot less frequently on live, but here losing significant amounts of money is a very rare occurrence.

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

b) "pvp happened, get over it" How is that pvp? It was a one-sided fight against someone who couldn't fight back, and you attacked because you were worried about your self-image as a rogue? So in the end, it was: "how I feel about myself is important enough to fuck over total strangers and greatly inconvenience them", and real life is full enough of that kind of scrotewank behavior. No thank you.

Now you've lost me. Going back to my last point, this isn't WoW or some online FPS where you always start on equal terms and face no penalties for losing. This is EverQuest, and EverQuest is an immersive world where you are insignificant and weak, in the grand scheme of things. I used to get killed by those damn drachnids running from FV to Loio to join groups, and they scared the shit out of me. Never in my life have I been more scared while playing a videogame (or even watching a movie) than making that suicide run on my unsowed 20something cleric alt as a kid.

Your argument against pvp here is akin to saying, " Level 35 giant and super scary spider/people things that see invis and cast standing in the way of a popular low 20s xp zone? That's not pve, it's bullshit!"

When you make it to the other side of that ungodly spider nest, you breathe a sigh of relief and feel pretty awesome about conquering your fear, and you're still jumpy for a while after making the run (or maybe that was just me!). Likewise, when you escape with your plat and your life after being confronted with overwhelming pvp odds, it feels nice. What's better is when you're actually able to chase off or even kill the bad guys that thought you'd be an easy target in your vulnerable state. A hard-won victory tastes all the sweeter, and us hardened EQ players wouldn't appreciate having the world handed to us anyway [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

c) "Attacking someone who is fighting something else is a legit strat and everyone does it" I remember Brad McQuaid talking in that History of EverQuest TV special about why PVP servers were added: some gamers didn't feel that you could be "the best on the server" unless you could compete directly with other players in combat. Yes, that idea is exciting and deserves a whole rewrite of EQ from the ground up, I agree. However... it has never been implemented successfully. None of the Zek servers could agree on a rule set, because it is still a PVE game with PVP elements shoehorned into it. Every attempt to make this work was ruined by enterprising bullies. Dont let players attack anyone outside of 5 levels up/down range? No problem, just bot a high level healer and kill people your own level. Teams pvp? Just look at server census data and roll the most popular team. Blue name until level 5 on Rallos Zek? Use this to train sand giants on evils like Fansy. Or cry in the forums about it till Fansy (and the rest of the lowbies) get nerfed.

McQuaid and the other EQ devs created the best MMO game known to mankind, but it was all a complete accident. This is especially true of the pvp servers. Whatever their reasons were for creating the pvp servers, the pvp community tended to find and invent their own. It was a pve game with pvp shoehorned in, I agree. But it was resulted in these really wonderful accidental social experiments, that we got to actively participate in. I'm a huge geek when it comes to EQ pvp and I could probably talk for hours about the various rulesets and what made each server unique and great in its own ways, but it would be boring for you to read and I lack the linguistic ability to convey my feelings well enough.

In a few short words... tenuous alliances (with bitter endings), friends you trust with your e-life, enemies you actually get to know as people and clash with frequently, people you can actually HATE (or dislike, if you're not crazy) as a community... It's maybe silly to say that a game is ever truly meaningful, but EQ pvp really was an expression of the human condition that I've never experienced elsewhere in my life. Player interactions are simply more meaningful on red servers than blue. We're afforded more options, and generally have the creativity to utilize them well.

Those instances you listed of people exploiting the rulesets never happened often enough to ruin the experience altogether. Why are you so focused on the negative? EQ isn't fair; if you have to win all of the time to enjoy a game then you wouldn't be here with the rest of us.

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) While I'm at it: where is the mental chess match pvp promises? "when fighting a caster, do ___. When fighting a melee DPS, do ___" It never works out that way; all you get is 2 of whatever fighting 1 of whatever. Or player A attacking player B, losing, then crying to guild because player A plays the victim saying they got ganked and camped even though they were the aggressor. Instead of some kind of mental activity it becomes a game of "who is part of the bigger pack of easily manipulated mediocre players". Then it's endless, recursive, fractal escalation as both sides call in more and more players, camping corpses and zone lines, until one side begs for a loot & scoot or everyone gets tired and goes to bed. How can no one see the cause & effect of just attacking some else leading to escalation?

You're not looking for escalation while playing your fantasy warfare game? :P

In EQ, you get all kinds of pvp fights; assuming you're with a decently populated guild. Large groups mowing over singles happens from time to time, but so do intense 1v1 fights that are like "mental chess matches", and larger guild vs guild battles that are always chaotic no matter how organized a guild is.

Are you complaining about excitement, and uncertainty?

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

a) How do you people get anything done with the constant interruptions?

Don't be such a drama queen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

b) how annoying is it to have a raid planned but instead everything disintegrates into a brawl at the zone entrance?

It's pretty flippin' awesome!

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

c) The recruitment threads offering high-level loot and PLing and touting the 1.25*XP rate really focus on how fast it will be to get to the part of the game just beyond the annoying part, but completely ignores the fact that having a red name is like saying "I really wish someone would interrupt and attack me right now" and "please interrupt me while I am progressing toward a goal of becoming stronger" and "if you don't kill me a bunch of times I might get XP and become high enough level to become a threat to you". Not a productive use of time just dangling yourself out there when you are new on the server and almost everyone else has a level 60 alt.

If a person plays this game exclusively to masturbate over their gear and stats, then that's totally cool with me. Some of us, though, are looking for adventure; and e-friends to share in those adventures. Adventures are very rarely productive in the conventional sense, but they are often the more profound and worthwhile experiences.

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So once again, after being disappointed with the let-down that is PVP in a fantasy MMO, where fights should be honorable and worth bragging about, and duels provide a more player versus player game than a red server ever could, I must decline the recruitment. That was a cool story, though. I was moved. But even though the story was about how PVP leads to trust and sympathy and friendship and social activity, history has always shown us that it's more about betraying all of that so you can get someone to group with you and cast Bind Affinity on them to ruin their firepots bind point then call your friends to kill the helpless victim over and over. It is never a fair fight, and it is almost always one-sided, and I don't understand how anyone could willingly enter into a place like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3NHNfLvdrk

Life hurts, but that's no reason not to take crazy chances. In EQ, what's the absolute worst that can happen? You're deleveled, or lose some gear? I say bring it on [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Sarajo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good luck with your recruitment. I hope you find people who will be truly happy there, as many already are, but I also hope that no one is brought over for all of the wrong reasons and illusions of friendship to experience the years of letdown I have.

[I](typed on my phone because I feel that strongly about it. And it was that good of a story. It deserved a reply)/I]

It's always nice to have more potential friends to play with. That's why I'm here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]