Monk Triple Attack

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Did you swap out your 2 handers for fist swings in between 2H swing timer?

Now that is min-maxin'.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Trzzle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Theres an easy place to parse for non-raid content. Bloodmaw in GD has ~50,000 hp and basically doesn't attack back. Using him with same buffs (epic haste + Avatar):

DW Wurmscale Fistwrap + Primal Fistwrap: 130dps
DW Epic Fist + Scepter of Mastery: 108dps
2H Trorsmang: 138dps
2H TStaff: 114dps (118dps including proc dmg @255dex)

Prior to this update TStaff only did ~80dps and Trorsmang ~100dps on Bloodmaw.

Regarding TStaff vs epic and SoM, these findings are consistent with both my experiences and the math theorycraft I’ve already posted in this thread. It’s cool to see Trorsmang is better compared to TStaff than my math suggested (in this case 16.9%). The influence of avatar proc and the effect of str makes absolutely delay and damage bonus less important than flat weapon ratio.

[Troxx]

This question is more about triple attack.

I was talking to a contact in game who mentioned that the general understanding of triple attack is wrong. They basically stated it was a second but separate opportunity to double attack additively. He implied that beyond the chance of a third attack it also increased a double attack percentage for primary hand. I’m not sure I was following his logic.

Do we know for certain precisely what the triple attack chance is, or rather following the patch how many more mainhand swing opportunities it actually gives?

I’ve been simply using a 5% increase in mainhand swings with my calculations. If the percentage is absolutely known I can use that to streamline calculations for a dps calculator vs lower ac content.

For example in the above parses raw melee on TStaff (not counting proc) is 5.3% better than epic/SoM.

If you use a x2 (example below): it predicts TStaff is 11% better
Example for epic ((9x2)+11)/16

If you use a x3 it drops to 9.3%

For this mob in particular 255 strength and high attack from avatar compared to this low ac mob would mean you would need a multiplier closer to x5.

Anywho I can draft a much more precise calculator for high attack and 255 str vs a low ac mob if I know the precise percentages for:

60 monk
Monk mainhand triple attack fire = ?
Monk mainhand double attack = ? (Different from offhand DA now?)
Monk offhand double attack = ?
Monk dual wield = ?

It wouldn’t be perfect as not everyone will will always have avatar and 255 str and certainly all mobs have different ac and this mob is also level 20.

Interestingly higher level mobs with higher ac actually shifts the multiplier for damage DOWN, not up. Lower multipliers shift the power scale TOWARDS 2hander ... not towards duel wield. The calculations hold true for both TStaff vs epic/SoM and a high end comparison of Abashi vs the pipedream 15/18 and 16/19.

This directly contradicts the idea that duel wield maintains an advantage over 2handers vs high level high ac mobs. The higher/tougher the mob, the lower the multiplier you should use as you get fewer high DI hits vs that mob.

This game has mechanics dictated by math equations, not witchcraft. Once you understand the math, the rest is easy. The challenge with parsing high level high ac parses is that raid targets inevitably come with lots of variables. Maintaining absolute consistency is hard and the fights themselves are short enough that the parses are prone to influence of the RNG. The shorter the parse the more flawed it is. The longer the parse the better. Long parses, even against low ac mobs, allow us to understand basic general concepts from which we can extrapolate reasonable predictions.

To be clear though: following this patch and the new dmg bonuses, high ac content where a larger proportion of your hits are lower DI and a greater proportion of your dmg comes from the unresitable damage bonus now favors the 2hander, not the fast dual wield meta we’ve known for so long.

I’ll go out on a limb and predict Abashi beats the shit out of BiS dual wield. Maybe I’m wrong but we’ll have to wait on a supremely geared monk who has these weapons to cough up the parses. Control parses for low ac can come from Bloodmaw. Comparatively to see how the balance shifts you can get a high level arena mob (Kael high ac). You can look at performance differences btw high low ac which then let’s you follow the bread crumbs to a comparison even vs a red con super ac raid mob. For Kael you can control it by having a single high blue shaman slowed, monk beats down to low then flops and lets it regen passively up while beating on the shaman then parse again on the same mob with weapon setup B. I predict the 2hander will proportionally do better the higher the mob is and the higher the ac is (you know ... Math).

Food for thought.

Sorry for the long post but I like to dork out when it comes to eq math and parses.

[Legidias]

They already did post parse

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

devil's advocate: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=333453

[Troxx]

60 monk with 158 str, 144dex, 34% worn haste, 1099 attack and no other buffs (did not use epic click of the like). I solo'd Bloodmaw exactly to 50% from full with both Tstaff and epic/SoM. I stripped away buffs, epic click, and did not kick to remove those variables altogether.

Tstaff: 376 seconds to hit 50%; 2hb dps 68.7dps with 1.9dps proc (total 70.6dps)

Epic/SoM: 452 seconds to hit 50%; combined 60.5dps (40.7 punch 19.8 blunt)

Trzzle had 255 str, epic attack and avatar attack and Tstaff performed 5.3% better
I had 158 str with zero buffs and Tstaff performed 12% better

How can you extrapolate this vs high ac mobs? Well in my case damage bonus was a much more important part of total damage done. I also had lower proportional attack compared to my target's ac (both of these are dynamics seen vs raid mobs and higher level mobs) and the result was the 2hander thanks to triple attack and a better dmg bonus leaning performed significantly better than the same combo does when you're looking at 255 str and higher attack. Point is, as of right now that common logic of DW vs harder mobs has indeed been flipped on it's head.

Of note I ran these parses a few times and what I can say is that dual wield consistently settled on average quite fast, generally within the first minute. It was predictable. For 2hand it was all over the place but always settled right around 68.7dps over time. Some fights I would spend the first minute above or closer to 100 before it then settled down to average. Other times I would spend the first 2 minutes hovering lower than average before creeping up.

This is important to note because we as humans are rife with observational bias and selective memory loss. We tend to have those bad run of luck which we focus on and then ignore the good runs of luck. We may or may not get disappointed with brief stretches of bad luck and ASSUME inferiority when no such inferiority exists. For every bad run there's a counterbalancing great run. Over time and the longer the fight, averages always manage to find their center.

Takeaway:

With high proportional attack vs mob ac was present; 2hand was only 5.3% better. When you strip away that extra attack (much like fighting a higher level and high ac mob), as I predicted the 2hander proportionally did better. In my case I consistently and repeatedly clocked Tstaff at 12% better with lower attack.

2handers are officially neato!

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They already did post parse

If you're referring to this (the high ac raid example):

Originally Posted by Twochain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Testing it out on ToV trash/Lord Vyemm... seems like 2hb is still straight garbage. Low hits. A lot of misses.

That's not a parse. That's a subjective feeling. With regards to subjective feelings, reference the post above this regarding observational bias and the streaky nature of 2handers compared to fast 1 handers.

The only parses or real parse summaries other than vague general ranges were parsed by Trzzle and now my own bloodmaw runs.

[Legidias]

Did you straight up ignore the huge DPS chart from tunare in that quote? lol

[Bbeta]

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Did you straight up ignore the huge DPS chart from tunare in that quote? lol

it isnt math so it must be ignored.

Math does not take into consideration RNG. this game is based off RNG. 2hb is trash for end game like i previously stated. High AC 1hb, having fun on blues and greens 2hb ur heart out

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Did you straight up ignore the huge DPS chart from tunare in that quote? lol

I missed that. A couple of observations and questions. Firfistle and Raev have the same weapons right? In a short sub-4 minute parse, Firfistle landed 168 hits in 223sec (more time) with a max hit of 205 and average hit 87. Raev landed 191 hits in 211 seconds (less time) with a max hit of 251 and average of 75. Raev spent 12 seconds less fighting but had a max hit nearly 19% higher and landed 12% more total hits yet hit on average for less. The DW monks had extremely similar average hits and total numbers of hits.

Assuming all monks had the exact same buffs (did they? Exactly the same). That, as Bbeta points out is the RNG at play and a fight too short to let all variables even out (not to mention the uncontrollable variables in a raid environment to include, but not limited to, player buffs, positioning, timing, and whatever else.

I know this sounds nitpicky but this is why long parses are required to tease things out. As I referenced in my above bloodmaws, if I only looked at the first 2-3 minutes of the fight with the 2hander the dps was clocked as high as 84 before eventually settling down to 68.7ish or might have looked as low as mid 50s before creeping up. Dual wield? I was consistently at or close to long duration average by 60 seconds. In a raid environment this means you’ll have the high rolling runs vs the underwhelming runs but overall the average will settle at its center.

We all know 2handers are streaky. We all know this. Prior to patch I could get a 30-40 difference in fight to fight performance vs the same mobs buffs unchanged.

The equations the game uses are very predictable and relative performance function absolutely can be predicted once you have enough points of data.

I’ll drag a shaman to Kael at some point in the future and test this out buffless in a higher ac mob. I’m predicting that higher ac and mob level will favor the 2hand post-patch. We’ll see.

[Synthlol]

Originally Posted by Bbeta [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this thread is painful to read.
*monk triple attack is innate at 60 and only applies to 2H Blunt

This guy has no idea how triple attack works.