It's not ok to diagnose people and prOscribe medications.

[starkind]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I thought it turned out that artificial intelligence was better at being a doctor than doctors?

Whatever happened to that did we just cover that shit up or what?

As long as it's unbiased. Hell yeah. Once something becomes self aware or is tampered with by a biased human.. then that advantage is lost. I suspect a few prototypes may be successful. Once it's mass produced it would just fall to the corruption and greed of self interested parties and individuals.

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by starkind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So it's like forensic profiling, which isn't always accurate. That's a pretty bunk science.

I’ll give some examples. Kids often try to claim hearing voices or seeing things, but schizophrenia comes out almost always at the end of puberty, so around 18-20 for girls and a few years older than that for boys. A psychiatrist who hears an 11 year old claim to be hearing voices is obviously going to be extremely skeptical that this child has schizophrenia rather than maybe a trauma response or simply their imagination. And a big indicator of this other than their age is their facial expressions

But let’s say it’s an adult or a child saying this. Adults often confuse their own inner monologue with auditory hallucinations, so let’s assume an adult claims to be hearing voices saying they are no good and should kill themself. A good follow up question is to ask where these voices are coming from. For a schizophrenic person with auditory hallucinations, they will almost always claim it to be from an outside source, such as behind a wall, from the tv, from the vents, etc, rather than within their own head. To go back to facial expressions, someone experiencing psychosis without mania will often have a flat emotionless affect, or a very labile (all over the place) affect, or sometimes an affect incongruent to what they are saying. So if a doctor is evaluating a man who has already smiled when he shook the doctor’s hand, frowned when relating a negative thing, and said he hears a voice in his head telling him he is no good and should kill himself is not going to get a schizophrenia diagnosis. His affect is context-appropriate, he doesn’t display disorganized speech or thoughts, and he is claiming the voice is coming from his own head, meaning it is his own internal monologue

That’s an example of how facial expressions matter. They are a part of evaluation, never the entire evalustion

[starkind]

Anyway my OP stands. Whale Biologists have zero fucking clue and I'm angry with them. (That doesn't make me bipolar).

Grrrr.

I will proceed to be an unemotional robot with completely flat affect now so that ya'll feel completely secure.

[Jibartik]

Basically people were typing in their symptoms and the computer would diagnose them with cancer and diseases they never heard of and they'd catch it before it was a problem while the human system was failing on every account.

[Whale biologist]

Originally Posted by starkind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyway my OP stands. Whale Biologists have zero fucking clue and I'm angry with them. (That doesn't make me bipolar).

Grrrr.

I will proceed to be an unemotional robot with completely flat affect now so that ya'll feel completely secure.

I already gave you permission to be mad. Btw if you act up you'll only be proving me right. 🙃

[starkind]

Originally Posted by unsunghero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’ll give some examples. Kids often try to claim hearing voices or seeing things, but schizophrenia comes out almost always at the end of puberty, so around 18-20 for girls and a few years older than that for boys. A psychiatrist who hears an 11 year old claim to be hearing voices is obviously going to be extremely skeptical that this child has schizophrenia rather than maybe a trauma response or simply their imagination. And a big indicator of this other than their age is their facial expressions

But let’s say it’s an adult or a child saying this. Adults often confuse their own inner monologue with auditory hallucinations, so let’s assume an adult claims to be hearing voices saying they are no good and should kill themself. A good follow up question is to ask where these voices are coming from. For a schizophrenic person with auditory hallucinations, they will almost always claim it to be from an outside source, such as behind a wall, from the tv, from the vents, etc, rather than within their own head. To go back to facial expressions, someone experiencing psychosis without mania will often have a flat emotionless affect, or a very labile (all over the place) affect, or sometimes an affect incongruent to what they are saying. So if a doctor is evaluating a man who has already smiled when he shook the doctor’s hand, frowned when relating a negative thing, and said he hears a voice in his head telling him he is no good and should kill himself is not going to get a schizophrenia diagnosis. His affect is context-appropriate, he doesn’t display disorganized speech or thoughts, and he is claiming the voice is coming from his own head, meaning it is his own internal monologue

That’s an example of how facial expressions matter. They are a part of evaluation, never the entire evalustion

I agree there are genuine issues medications can help. They are certainly not safe magic pills and I believe most psychiatrists don't do their due diligence. Follow up. And patients often neglect alternatives expecting medications to do it for them.

We also have a major problem with the legal culture, lobbies, and pharmaceutical companies in the United States which create barriers to safe and effective treatment and tie the hands of dedicated psychiatrists willing to take some risk. All for the greater good.

Yet our society is failing. How many broken homes are because people aren't coping. They're looking for external solutions. They are taken advantage of because it's easy to pray on them.

Maybe mom's don't have to be single. Maybe kids don't need to have a completely flat affect at 8 years old. Or given medicine to induce one.

I'm pretty upset so I'm going to disengage.

You're not wrong. However the incidence of truly broken people is only on the rise. Once someone gets prescribed the kind of stuff I have been. It becomes incredibly hard to hold a job or stay healthy. The kinds of meds thrown at me where dangerous and did me incredible harm.

[starkind]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically people were typing in their symptoms and the computer would diagnose them with cancer and diseases they never heard of and they'd catch it before it was a problem while the human system was failing on every account.

Yes

Originally Posted by Whale biologist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I already gave you permission to be mad. Btw if you act up you'll only be proving me right. 🙃

😬

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by starkind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree there are genuine issues medications can help. They are certainly not safe magic pills and I believe most psychiatrists don't do their due diligence. Follow up. And patients often neglect alternatives expecting medications to do it for them.

We also have a major problem with the legal culture, lobbies, and pharmaceutical companies in the United States which create barriers to safe and effective treatment and tie the hands of dedicated psychiatrists willing to take some risk. All for the greater good.

Yet our society is failing. How many broken homes are because people aren't coping. They're looking for external solutions. They are taken advantage of because it's easy to pray on them.

Maybe mom's don't have to be single. Maybe kids don't need to have a completely flat affect at 8 years old. Or given medicine to induce one.

I'm pretty upset so I'm going to disengage.

You're not wrong. However the incidence of truly broken people is only on the rise. Once someone gets prescribed the kind of stuff I have been. It becomes incredibly hard to hold a job or stay healthy. The kinds of meds thrown at me where dangerous and did me incredible harm.

No the setup is totally bad due to a shortage of psychiatrists

Did you know back in the day psychiatrists used to offer therapy? They would begin with talk therapy, and only after x number of sessions would they ever begin to look at treating symptoms with medication. They also would spend a good deal longer both doing therapy or discussing symptoms, such as 1-2 hour evaluations AND that same length for follow up visits (sometimes with a combination of talk therapy with symptoms discussion resulting in a medication change). Also people used to be able to keep their same doctors better

Now it’s an assembly line due to the shortage of them. Now there’s no more counseling/therapy from psychiatrists (only from therapists now), now follow up visits are like 15 minutes. How is a person supposed to accurately summarize an entire month in 15 minutes? I tell people to keep a symptoms journal with times/dates, that can help. But still, this assembly line system is bad

Plus you have people going to hospitals needlessly because they can’t get in with their regular doctor who’s backed up, so they see a new doctor at a hospital who completely changes their medication and not for the better

Longer visits, go back to having psychiatrists do some counseling (not even to “fix” things but just to get a better idea of the person’s baseline), and stop with turnover where people can be going to the same clinic and still end up seeing 3 different doctors in 6 months

That would help fix some things…

[Jibartik]

[starkind]

Originally Posted by unsunghero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No the setup is totally bad due to a shortage of psychiatrists

Did you know back in the day psychiatrists used to offer therapy? They would begin with talk therapy, and only after x number of sessions would they ever begin to look at treating symptoms. They also would spend a good deal longer both doing therapy or discussing symptoms, such as 1-2 hour evaluations AND that same length for follow up visits (sometimes with a combination of talk therapy with symptoms discussion resulting in a medication change). ...this assembly line system is bad

Plus you have people going to hospitals needlessly...

Longer visits...
That would help fix some things…

Yes. Thank you for acknowledging all that. Your suggestions are very sensible.

Health care costs are only soaring and being a psychiatrist is only getting harder and less profitable. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]