Kael + ToV Rules

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If another guild trains you then it is obviously on them to concede their mob and it only affects you in that your timer is still ticking. We told you that you were in over your heads wanting to clear into tov, you take on the risks involved in clearing in there when you decide to do it. Everyone in the sub forum knows what a wipe is and when it is and isn't their own fault, pretending like you don't just to squeeze out a more favorable position for yourself is laughable. Tov is a difficult zone to navigate and succeed in, youre going to fail at first and learn from those failures, just keep trying until you get better like the rest of us did.

You're inflating our posts because they are causing us to look at unfavorable outcomes. It was you that told us to examine every angle.

Pint, do you want me to examine every angle or just throw ourselves in and worry about problems after they happen? I was an advocate for the latter and you convinced me to the former. Now the roles are reversed.

[Culkasi]

Wow, this thread is horrible, start to end. I am speechless really.

The idea was to make stuff less contentious and stupid, but for some reason we've now spent a week discussing stupid rules and what the line is and who gets to cross it and under what circumstances.

Could we try for a cycle just to agree not to be assholes for pixels, and see where that brought us?

None of us NEEEEED the pixels bad enough for this. None of us.

[Pint]

Originally Posted by Culkasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

None of us NEEEEED the pixels bad enough for this. None of us.

then dont show up?

if a dragon walk into your camp and then walks out, then you failed to kill said dragon. that is a wipe. what about this is confusing or unclear?

the things that you need easy definable rules on are stalls and kites because there can be wiggle room here. there is no wiggle room on what a wipe is, everyone knows when they attempted something and failed to succeed.

[Daldaen]

So the repop brought to light a few issues.

Primarily, when a guild is locked into their one target, what is the acceptable procedure to follow through for any other FTEs that may occur while your locked target is still alive.

For example we pulled Lord Koi Doken (first FTE) and his pull incidentally aggroed Lord Vyemm (who we conceded) and we had a miscommunication that led to a monk aggroing Lady M (who we also conceded). Neither of those targets were pulled or even touched beyond the pull to get Lord Koi Doken into camp.

In my mind, once you're locked in to a mob any other FTE you acquire incidental to your pull shouldn't matter unless you're stalling the mob by kiting it around after your locked target has been pulled to camp (I.E. Vulak).

But beyond that, you shouldn't be required to concede any target you happen to FTE while you're already locked into another mob. For many pulls, it's simply not possible to avoid other FTEs. The Triplets and Doubles for example, the first guild in each room would have to concede the extra mobs and be forced to go with whichever FTE fires off first. That doesn't seem very logical to me.

I don't know whether we were required to concede the targets that we did, but due to being unclear we didn't want to risk breaking the rules. Here is what I would suggest adding to the rules:

FTEs occurring while you're already locked into a target don't count at all, it's as if they never happened. After you kill your locked mob you must reacquire FTE on a new player to claim FTE -- I.E. Not the player who got the FTE during your pull (this would prevent a monk from FDing with aggro and standing to fire a new FTE or some other nonsense).

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

FTEs occurring while you're already locked into a target don't count at all, it's as if they never happened.

Good common sense approach mostly. An effort should be made to drop excess FTEs as soon as humanly possible, and an excess FTE should never inhibit another raid force from getting their shot. For example, I'd be pissed if you were pulling Koi and it aggroed Aary, then by the time Aary is done moving around and settled, we're working a pull, you're now done with Koi and proceed to grab Aary next. Your excess Aary FTE stopped me getting him into camp. You obviously aren't trying to stall Aary for your own gain, but it nonetheless prevented me from pulling.

Vulak is obviously an entirely different scenario, concession is probably the right call.

[Pint]

By that logic then you could pull vulak and tie up the entire zone until you're done, unless youre exempting vulak?

Aftermath did our due diligence and we went to sirken to make sure we were in the clear on similar issues. I'm not speaking for him but at the time he told us that if no other guild is competing then its alright. So since awakened had conceded everything and anon/div opted to leave for the night after nev, aftermath was left with no competitors in tov so we killed all 3 triplets. Had bda or csg showed up and asked for us to concede them then we would have had to I think. So if no one is interested in the mobs youre chain fte'ing you are probably in the clear but if another entity is there in real time asking for you to concede mobs for them to get their own fte then you probably need to concede. At least that is the impression that aftermath is under.

[Detoxx]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good common sense approach mostly

That's never worked on this server. I had to get Sirken to OK us to pull Zlexak and Sevalak last night because a guild that wasn't even allowed to contest them was frapsing and threatening to petition even though we all know pulling triplets is impossible to do without 3 ftes going off.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Detoxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's never worked on this server.

Common sense hasn't worked on this server because most times common sense isn't actually used, it's contorted and abused for gain. Common sense dictates that you probably shouldn't be able to ice KT while you run off to ToV. Common sense dictates that the whole point of the Braknar agreement was to leave everything that wasn't in Fear or VP for the rest of the server, but Naggy/Vox got merc'd anyways.

You can't bemoan that common sense doesn't work when you're actively twisting it around.

Back on point, when multiple guilds are in ToV jockeying for targets it's going to be very difficult to discern intent and who disenfranchised who or if someone crying wolf etc etc. Maybe just conceding straight away any excess FTE is the way to go. Then there's no grey area to argue about or fraps or petition

[Pint]

We see no reason to concede mobs that no one is competing for. If a guild wants a tov mob then they should have representatives in zone actively working to secure themselves ftes. If a guild is half way across norrath asking for concession on mobs they arnt eligible or positioned to fte then we are probably not going to honor those requests.

[Daldaen]

Vulak itself should require you concede every mob you kite because you kite them for awhile, tying them up.

The no competition thing is dubious though. When we acquired FTE on Lady M, Divinity/Anon were still locked in on Eashen and no other force was in the zone. By the time we killed Koi I believe they were still locked in. So we had no competition per that logic and could've ran another racer up for Lady M to lock in on her if we wanted.

I think another way to handle it is this:

You FTE say... Cekenar, grabbing the other Triplets. You pull and kill Cekenar, while having bogus FTEs on Zlexak and Sevalak. You can go for Zlexak or Sevalak, after getting FTE on another different mob and killing it (say Ikatiar) and then going back for Triplets mobs. Basically you cannot kill a target and then follow that up with FTE on a mob you got bogus FTE on during your pull or kite. You must have a buffer mob inbetween to allow other guilds fair shots at that target.

My reasoning behind this is you have to go for a buffer mob inbetween, preventing the situation Chest is talking about. Even if a pull inhibited his pull, he would have ample time during our other kill to make his attempt at getting FTE on the mob. It prevents having to outright concede a target and prevents any shenanigans with kiting a target off dropping it and then picking it up when your other target is dead.