Green - Human Innoruk Cleric

[Gatorsmash]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

+25 WIS is nothing to sneeze at, especially in classic and Kunark eras. You won't come close to capping WIS until Velious, especially in resist gear. And remember that every additional bit of +WIS you get at character creation means less +WIS you need from gear, which allows you flexibility to instead itemize for +CHA, Mana, AC, HP or resists as needed.

Also keep in mind that most everything you will be calming as a Cleric will be an XP mob. Meaning a low blue con. So even with only a modest CHA stat you will still have mostly successful calms simply due to the level differential, which only increases as you get to high levels, thus calming gets more reliable as you level.

Honestly it's very dumb to prioritize CHA over WIS on a Cleric. Over the life of the character the additional Mana from extra WIS will probably come in handy and possibly save your group/your life more than some extra CHA preventing a few crit fails while pulling XP mobs (which you should have a plan B for anyway since you will still fail occasionally even with Max CHA).

Its 23% of your possible maximum starting mana pool for a cleric (25 points) hence my reaction https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=350102

[DMN]

A human with +5 wis could still realistically hit 200 wisdom pre- kunark, pre planes, and with no dragon loot.

if you started with +25 wis you could probably swap 2-3 wis peices with mana pieces, like platinum tiara. And at the end you'd prolly end up with around 100 more mana at 50.

Classic time period clerics will generally be more hit point focused anyway so they can abuse manastone/CH. Even without stones raiding eventually will start breaking down to mana regen methods and not raw stating wisdom. (mod rod, twitching, meditation + clarity + flowing etc.) Humans in particular will eventually be able to use call of bone from a clicky, too, in manastone restricted places for a couple months.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

+25 WIS is nothing to sneeze at, especially in classic and Kunark eras. You won't come close to capping WIS until Velious, especially in resist gear. And remember that every additional bit of +WIS you get at character creation means less +WIS you need from gear, which allows you flexibility to instead itemize for +CHA, Mana, AC, HP or resists as needed.

Also keep in mind that most everything you will be calming as a Cleric will be an XP mob. Meaning a low blue con. So even with only a modest CHA stat you will still have mostly successful calms simply due to the level differential, which only increases as you get to high levels, thus calming gets more reliable as you level.

Honestly it's very dumb to prioritize CHA over WIS on a Cleric. Over the life of the character the additional Mana from extra WIS will probably come in handy and possibly save your group/your life more than some extra CHA preventing a few crit fails while pulling XP mobs (which you should have a plan B for anyway since you will still fail occasionally even with Max CHA).

Shouldn't your plan be to not pull shit you can't kill without risking a completely OOM Cleric. Sounds like a pretty dumb group if your strategy is anything else. if your group isn't a bunch of morons it would never save you because you'd always wait until the cleric had enough mana for a given pull. And if by some fluke the extra 100ish mana you will have had would have "saved" you, you could have just as easlly rooted/mez and meditated or even camp out.

[Vexenu]

It just really doesn't make sense to ignore your primary stat on a Cleric, of all classes (being one of the two classes along with Wiz that can realistically expect to be dumping their entire mana bar on a not-infrequent basis), in favor of a stat that is only useful for ONE spell that you probably won't even be using that much. Especially with CHA gear being the cheapest and easiest stat gear to acquire in the game.

I mean, who rolls a Cleric to maximize their pulling ability? Even with high CHA, a Cleric is what, the sixth or seventh best pulling class in the game? After Monks, SKs, Enchanters, Necros, Bards, Rangers and Paladins? When exactly is a Cleric going to be pulling so much that WIS becomes a secondary concern to CHA?

I think this is another example of people attempting to powergame so much they get themselves turned around. The other being people who recommend going 25 STA and 5 INT on INT casters. Yeah, it makes sense if you started the game in NToV gear. But you don't. And if you're on Green you won't have anything close to that for a very long time.

[Dulian]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It just really doesn't make sense to ignore your primary stat on a Cleric, of all classes (being one of the two classes along with Wiz that can realistically expect to be dumping their entire mana bar on a not-infrequent basis), in favor of a stat that is only useful for ONE spell that you probably won't even be using that much. Especially with CHA gear being the cheapest and easiest stat gear to acquire in the game.

I mean, who rolls a Cleric to maximize their pulling ability? Even with high CHA, a Cleric is what, the sixth or seventh best pulling class in the game? After Monks, SKs, Enchanters, Necros, Bards, Rangers and Paladins? When exactly is a Cleric going to be pulling so much that WIS becomes a secondary concern to CHA?

I think this is another example of people attempting to powergame so much they get themselves turned around. The other being people who recommend going 25 STA and 5 INT on INT casters. Yeah, it makes sense if you started the game in NToV gear. But you don't. And if you're on Green you won't have anything close to that for a very long time.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It just really doesn't make sense to ignore your primary stat on a Cleric, of all classes (being one of the two classes along with Wiz that can realistically expect to be dumping their entire mana bar on a not-infrequent basis), in favor of a stat that is only useful for ONE spell that you probably won't even be using that much. Especially with CHA gear being the cheapest and easiest stat gear to acquire in the game.

It's not one spell. It's three cleric spell lines that are affected. Atone, lull, and divine intervention. And it makes plenty of sense since cleric has access to tons of good AC/WiS items, but access to virtually no good Cha/AC/hitpoint items. It doesn't matter if there is cheap cha gear when that gear is is usually devoid of any other useful stats for surviving inevitable critical lulls.

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean, who rolls a Cleric to maximize their pulling ability? Even with high CHA, a Cleric is what, the sixth or seventh best pulling class in the game? After Monks, SKs, Enchanters, Necros, Bards, Rangers and Paladins? When exactly is a Cleric going to be pulling so much that WIS becomes a secondary concern to CHA?

Anyone who doesn't want to spend their life as a CH bot in a raid would want to be good at pulling for full groups, for duo/trio, and certainly for doing any soloing. clerics are great pullers because they can DA on critical lull fails and if the group has any other competent CC classes, you can get the mobs controlled and hopefully avoid a wipe. They can also root membur adds they didn't want to/couldn't deal with at the time or lull past mobs they don't want to have to bother clearing, especially important when doing CR. Lacking invisibility clerics will often find themselves having to lull their way through dungeons.

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think this is another example of people attempting to powergame so much they get themselves turned around. The other being people who recommend going 25 STA and 5 INT on INT casters. Yeah, it makes sense if you started the game in NToV gear. But you don't. And if you're on Green you won't have anything close to that for a very long time.

Nah. Not the same at all. Int casters get garbage returns on adding stamina even at 60. Those points are barely noticeable. Cha has huge effect per stat point. With 175 cha a character will be TWICE as likely to get a critical lull fail as someone with 200 cha. And you will never hit 150+ cha on an unbuffed cleric without sacrificing major amounts of wisdom/HP/resists/ac .

[Danth]

Why would I want my Cleric pulling? Pullers die--a lot. It's about the riskiest occupation in-game. The whole point of pulling is you use someone who's basically disposable so if/when he dies someone else can take over while the Cleric rezzes him back in and the group keeps on truckin'. The Cleric IS the rezzer for most groups, and quite often when he dies it means either the group's either boned or at least suffers a lengthy delay while he recovers. That's not worth it.

If you're alone or in a duo where you're the only person who has a chance of doing the job, then have at it--you do what you need to do to win. Some Clerics do primarily play in solo/duo situations so this is by no means dismissive of the larger question of statistic allocation.

------------------------------------------

More generally, WIS on a Cleric is akin to STA on a tank type: It's a fairly safe starting allocation. It's not always the best for all races and all players, but it's safe enough. As someone who has argued against always going all STA on tank types, I very much see where DMN is coming from. A player should consider how he intends to use the character in question then create his own character accordingly. Charisma gives good service for a minority of Cleric players who for one reason or another find themselves having to frequently use those spells. I don't recommend it for everyone but it shouldn't be forgotten either.

Danth

[Vexenu]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Hexed_Kerran_Doll +6 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Crude_Stein + 15 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Golden_Cat_Eye_Bracelet x 2 +14 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Siryn_Hair_Hood +13 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Electrum_Star_Ruby_Ring x 2 +14 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Platinum_Star_Ruby_Veil +9 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Opalline_Earring x 2 +10 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Cat_Eye_Platinum_Necklace +9 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Drake-hide_Leggings +5 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Silk_Evening_Tunic +5 CHA

That's a nice even total of +100 CHA from easily obtainable items in classic.

If you made a Human with +25 WIS and +5 CHA at start, you could still end up with 180 CHA for high risk calm pulls. In contrast, the cost to obtain +100 WIS from items in classic is much higher.

I have leveled multiple Paladins and Clerics and am very familiar with the calm line. For most pulling situations calm is realistically just being used for convenience and a critical failure won't get you killed, and you're perfectly fine with even under 100 CHA if you're killing XP mobs (had a Dwarf Pally who got a lot of use out of it, even). Yes, there are rare situations where a failed calm is likely to get you killed, but as Danth pointed out, why the hell would you want your Cleric pulling in that situation, as your Cleric is also your rezzer? It makes no sense.

Basically, it only makes sense to pump CHA if you only want to solo your Cleric deep inside dungeons and can twink with +WIS gear already, or you intend duo heavily with a non-Enchanter, non-puller class (i.e. Mage or Warrior) and know you will be the primary puller. In other words, 99% of Clerics should not be doing it and are better off pumping WIS at creation.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Hexed_Kerran_Doll +6 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Crude_Stein + 15 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Golden_Cat_Eye_Bracelet x 2 +14 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Siryn_Hair_Hood +13 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Electrum_Star_Ruby_Ring x 2 +14 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Platinum_Star_Ruby_Veil +9 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Opalline_Earring x 2 +10 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Cat_Eye_Platinum_Necklace +9 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Drake-hide_Leggings +5 CHA
https://wiki.project1999.com/Silk_Evening_Tunic +5 CHA

That's a nice even total of +100 CHA from easily obtainable items in classic.

If you made a Human with +25 WIS and +5 CHA at start, you could still end up with 180 CHA for high risk calm pulls. In contrast, the cost to obtain +100 WIS from items in classic is much higher.

I have leveled multiple Paladins and Clerics and am very familiar with the calm line. For most pulling situations calm is realistically just being used for convenience and a critical failure won't get you killed, and you're perfectly fine with even under 100 CHA if you're killing XP mobs (had a Dwarf Pally who got a lot of use out of it, even). Yes, there are rare situations where a failed calm is likely to get you killed, but as Danth pointed out, why the hell would you want your Cleric pulling in that situation, as your Cleric is also your rezzer? It makes no sense.

Basically, it only makes sense to pump CHA if you only want to solo your Cleric deep inside dungeons and can twink with +WIS gear already, or you intend duo heavily with a non-Enchanter, non-puller class (i.e. Mage or Warrior) and know you will be the primary puller. In other words, 99% of Clerics should not be doing it and are better off pumping WIS at creation.

And so you've proven the point. You aren't even hitting 200 cha despite turning yourself in into a paper bag with a hello kitty sticker on it.

Ideally, you wouldn't have the cleric pull, but you won't always have ideal party compositions for what you are doing, especially when doing things in smaller groups and obviously solo.

And both clerics are going to be buying virtually identical gear. Except to maintain the mana advanatge the +25 wis cleric is going to have to swapping to high plat items like tiara and +mana jewlery -- which is, guess what, really expensive.

[Jimjam]

As a priest go for charisma if you want your sermons to give sway, or wisdom if you’re willing to lose some of the parish but ensure those that do remain to listen actually learn something meaningful.