#31
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No one is saying that CHA is useless, or that Clerics can't do a lot of cool stuff with their spell line. We're just saying that CHA is literally ONLY useful in the following circumstances:
1) When you are casting Lull in a situation where a crit fail is guaranteed to kill you. 2) When you are trying to CR yourself naked. These situations certainly happen, probably to some players more than others depending on their playstyle preferences, but they still represent a tiny fraction of overall playtime. Conversely, max mana is useful 100% of the time, as it functions as a deeper gas tank that you always have available. HP, resists (and even AC to a point) are similarly useful. More is always better. Is more CHA always better? Sure. But it functionally has no benefit unless you are heavily utilizing Lull in the scenarios outlined above, which means that you have a really strange and risky playstyle and seemingly don't know any good Enchanters, and that you're going on a hell of a lot of solo CRs. To summarize: Mana, HP, resists, AC = always useful for keeping yourself and your group alive. CHA = only useful if you are relying on Lulls to stay alive. | ||
#32
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Innoruuk, Brell and Tunare priests are a dime a dozen, but good luck to anyone who somehow needs a Bertoxxulous or even Erollisi cleric, for instance. | |||
Last edited by tadkins; 10-22-2022 at 02:51 AM..
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#33
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High manapools serve little purpose except in the most protracted fights. If your mana never hits zero, you had too much mana and that was a total waste of stats equipped. You could fight for 10 hours crawling around HS and never go under 40m...You had too much mana. Your enc probably died 4 times from shit lull fails though. If you're smart you kept the pet pacified for free the entire time so the CR didn't involve backtracking to find a pet or losing 5k of gear. If the cleric did the room breaks, noone ever dies as cleric gets the same RNG for critical fails as the enc. But the cleric survives them every single time. A critical fail for the cleric can be significantly worse and be survivable for the group, than if it happens to the enc. Those long protracted fights are generally the result of poor players not tracking spawn/spawn timers, mass pulling rooms etc. You never need those mana pools outside of raiding except in some super unique situations (like I said, duo chardok royals, duo monk epic fights, etc). Again you really need to elevate your play to appreciate how to control what can be controlled, and mitigate RNG that cant be the best way either class or group composition allows. Emp in seb is an Can I also raise the point that the enc doesn't need to cap cha when generally charming and fighting around, 205-210 is fine. That leaves a LOT of extra AC and HP available to gear if your regular partner is a capped CHA cleric. Totally changes the gear dynamic for a pair of buddies or a husband/wife team etc. Enc survivability goes through the roof with AC. Quote:
My own experience has changed in a dozen years. Early on P99 I deliberately played a low cha cleric, avoided the stat as much as possible. My entire meta for playing as a cleric revolved around being a hillbilly and just healing. Then realising there is more to do and play with, so built the toon around duo/trio comps where we could invis pull, so would rely on my low CHA, & land invis while lull cast, and single pull fungi king/HS nameds/drusallar necks/emp/etc. I stopped farming fungi's when they went under 115-125k or so if that's a reference as to when on p99 that was. It worked well as I could duo king with any class that could survive 20 seconds between ch's and could invis me (mage/war/ranger/etc), then the invis pulling was patched. A week after that patch I delevelled & deleted my (vp geared) 60 cleric, rerolled max cha halfling. It wasn't a good trade losing snare for sneak, deleted him at 60 (rip another hosh stick). PS. you can't loot a dead corpse of an identically named player if you delete and reroll with same name. Got the dark elf back and relevelled with max cha gear...even with the shit race I found it was game changing at that point. A few friends cottoned on to it and all did the same too. So I made plans for green human/inny for green launch. The combo was amazing, but I missed wall vision too much and it was very time and mana consuming recasting IVU to get next two targets in guk, or during the rubi farming process wall vision would have been huge while calm moving around cazic thule. So I've kind of landed on bertox gnome being best possible for my play style (ideally you want a tunare snare 1hb), and I appreciate the human inny as well almost as much as I do very occasionally wish I had a castable snare. But nowhere near as much as I missed wall vision. Gnome easier/cheaper mobility through doors with aon/probes, easier targeting and scouting. Wall vision for me is just huge though, for others they don't use it or miss it. In summary So I've tried the 3.6k mana near BiS kunark cle with low cha. (server first hosh staff, 4th? donals bp, manastone etc) Tried the 2.8k mana cha kunark cle with high cha (hosh staff, donals, manastone etc) Tried the full cha set vanilla cle (with full hp set obvs as AC was dogshit, and manastones duhh) Tried the full cha set velious, and settled on a 3.7k mana alternate or 240cha primary gear (all the usual clickies) And have played plenty of 4k-4.1k mana velious cle as a reference point. The velious cha set one is by far the best. You give up almost nothing and absolutely trivialise group content. You allow your group to be almost any composition and you can make it work. Thats at all game levels and content releases through velious. In classic/vanilla on green I was the 2nd? cleric to 49 behing bayleigh and being able to be super mobile and CR groups in efreeti/lguk/etc was lucritive on its own. Let alone able to pac rooms and just manastone/HP set/undead nuke frenzy/undead tower nameds all night. Controlling all the pulls in highkeep so we could keep it as a duo/trio and not need a half dozen idiots riding coat tails pulling 3 at once inefficiently. I do remember only maybe 3 or 4 clerics on the server went that route and we all did the same dumb shit no other cleric could and I think it changed a lot of peoples minds who were around. So for me cha is the primary stat. Especially in velious when you don't sacrifice that much and maintain a workable amount of AC/HP too. As I said you could have 8,000mana and if you only ever used the first 2,000, you had 6k mana of wasted stats and probably had a real shit time not being able to spend it; watching people die in botched pulls etc. CHA isn't always the best stat, and sometimes full mana is, I don't think anyone could argue that. There has been times on P99 where we sacrificed every stat for others like pre velious even max MR and at times we ran max PR and FR sets on P99 with 355 resist caps but those days don't exist. But I'd say for almost every person playing a cleric that isn't a dedicated CH bot on protracted mana intensive fights like unslowable raid content... You can get along just fine in full cha set and by the time you're 60/collect some raid pixels, your mana is appropriate to be better than most guilds cleric bots anyway. Huge swing... There is absolutely the same argument for others classes I'll also say but for the sake of a paragraph, discussing AC vs HP on a warrior. Parsing some of the raid content on p99 over the years it's just laughable how much bossses are over-tuned from 'live' figures and thus how irrelevent AC is when you are a raid tank at any content above vindi and kunark dragons. But if you get in an xp group there is some 65-6700hp tanks on p99 that are significantly worse than a 6k tank in a ridiculously high AC setup. Wearing the AC gear on anything resembling a raid boss is a mistake (to make that clear, doubly). One of my warriors has a few gear swaps for a quick 250AC change and the difference is incredible (+50 from ears swap, +20 from ring swap, +35 offhand swap, +45 range swap, +20 from neck) if you tank a dracolich, VS, or group content/chardok stuff/run around seb for fun etc. It goes against all of the p99 obsession with maximum HP warriors but reality is all those group tanks should care about nothing but AC for maximum exp/hour/efficiency. But that change is measurable, instantly recognisable. Anyway I'm done preaching, I'd rather just see people experiment with it themselves and test it out and come to whatever conclusion the data and empirical feel of the gameplay is. Some just want to sit in the corner, med, click the box with the shorter green bar and click a heal. That has worked fine for clerics on everquest for years, still does today on EQ. Some wizards want to sit and nuke, some enchanters would rather have someone pull 6 mobs and they CC it rather than them leaving camp and pre pacifying a few, some warriors cant taunt mezzed mobs and cycle targets mid fight and just hope for the best. There are many different ways to play, and a high cha cleric is a way to turn a reactive class into a very active one. Thats why I say cha is the dominant stat. And I keep a high mana set for those times I need long CH endurance, but I just log on one of my other clerics for that anyway. Easily is just about perfect as is, for anyone that's played with him [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] | ||||
Last edited by Solist; 10-22-2022 at 03:47 AM..
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#34
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#35
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#36
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Gnomes are badass BUT terrible, terrible stats (low wis, low str, low cha) and no useful clickies. Wallhack is a convenience, but halflings can do pretty much the same thing and so can most other races if they sit down a bit. It's not like we lull as much as chanters do.
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Lulling is useful in situations where a failed lull COULD kill you. It's useful in situations where a failed lull could set you back a significant amount of mana and time. | |||
#37
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Racing to 50 on a new server, you could have an argument about prioritizing Charisma. But that's not what the game is right now. It can also be helpful to prioritize CHA if you're playing the character for a specific small group purpose. But again, that's not what most Clerics are trying to do in the game.
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#39
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Solist seems to have a really weird playstyle (and seems like a really weird dude in general, no offense, but not many people re-roll two level 60 Clerics for such trivial reasons) so maybe CHA is useful for him. Most people roll Clerics to raid, group or duo with an Enchanter. In all three of those roles you are very rarely well-served by stacking CHA, and in those rare cases you do need it, see the post I quoted above about how easily and cheaply you can acquire +CHA gear. | |||
#40
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Just bag half a set of charisma gear and put it on when you need to lull, use regular gear otherwise. No need to dedicate your permanent gear set to charisma.
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