SK Race question + item help (have never played a tank)

[pasi]

Some inane ramblings from someone who hasn't been much involved in EQEMu for 15 years and hasn't played much P99 in 10+ years either. Proceed with caution:


From a historical perspective, the consensus (on TSW and SK.org) from 2000 to 2009 was that the iksar AC bonus did nothing – which may or may not have been a misinterpretation of what an EQdev said. Circa 2003-2004, Rashere had mentioned the Iksar AC bonus was for displayed AC only. This was prompted from parses showing the Iksar bonus not having any discernable effect. I think the community had taken “Displayed AC only” to mean it does nothing for RealAC. In 2009, someone went through the trouble of parsing a 51 DE SK vs a 51 Iksar SK with the same testcopy: http://eqshadowknight.net/archive/index.php/t-5360.html

While not a major difference, at low levels of gear (i.e. before softcap) – there was a discernable difference. Obviously, this was 2009 as opposed to in-era, but that’s really the only parse I am aware of that actually demonstrated benefit from the iksar AC bonus. Of course, it was for lower levels (the iksar bonus caps at 35, so this bonus relatively declines at higher levels) and at low levels of gear.
Fortunately, in 2014 Dzarn had posted the code for AC. See: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/.../#post-3078126

For starters, racial and class bonuses are applied at step 8 in the Display AC calculation. For brevity’s sake, it means that the 35 AC Iksar bonus does not receive the 4/3 multiplier that Item AC receives. So, right off the bat this is equivalent to 26 non-shield AC.

Up until late Velious on live, AC was hardcapped at 289. Late in Velious, a softcap was implemented for overcap returns for melee. Casters were still hardcapped. AC above 289 was given a minimal return. There’s no well-documented number in the Prathun statement detailing this, but from my years of doing this shit, 5% seems to be the figure thrown around for Pre-Luclin. Following the Luclin mitigation/avoidance patch, these AC Overcap returns increased to 16.7% for Knights. Following the PoP patch, that rises to 25%. Hard caps also rising. Of course the 16.7% and 25% are EQEMU community’s best estimate from what was known.

Putting it all together. In late Velious, the Iksar AC bonus for SK above 289 AC would be 0.05 * 26 = 1 real AC. In SOL, that is 0.167 * 26 = 4 real AC. In POP, that is 0.25 * 26 = 6 real AC.

As an aside, the usual disclaimer that all this is all for EQLive circa that era. Project1999 code may or may not deviate from the above.

Shadowknights are arguably the worst class in the game from Kunark until Omens of War at least. There's not much sense in optimizing 1-2%. Play whatever race looks the best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah the 289 ac soft cap is the main reason why the Iksar AC Bonus isn't a huge deal on plate wearing classes (Warrior/Shadowknight/Shaman). My Shadowknight isn't AC focused (quite a few pieces are lower than what they should be for a plate wearing class), and he is sitting at 283 worn AC. If I used a higher AC belt like Spider Fur Belt and Barbed Dragonscale Pauldrons I would be over the ac softcap. It just isn't that difficult to get to the ac soft cap due to plate having a high average AC. For Monks and Necromancers the Iksar AC Bonus is better, because their worn armor has a much lower AC average.

I always find it strange that people seem to think that saying "race A is better than race B" is somehow saying "don't play race B ever". I don't think anybody has ever said that, so I don't know why people get so upset. There are plenty of people who play a race for fashion quest, and they do just fine.

All you need to do is tell people what is objectively better/worse, and let them factor that into their decision when making a new character. I don't know why that is so hard on these forums.

If you think some information is wrong factually/mathematically, bring facts and math to back up your point.

[Jimjam]

There is a difference between saying ‘race b isn’t as good’ and ‘race b is bad’.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is a difference between saying ‘race b isn’t as good’ and ‘race b is bad’.

I don't mean "bad" as in unplayable, it just means objectively worse than another race.

I will happily change my vocabulary to whatever word people feel doesn't insult their favorite race hehe. I don't assume "bad" means unplayable, but maybe that is just me. It's just faster to type "bad" as opposed to "slightly worse than other races". People complain about my verbosity, and then ask for it.

If I say "race A is worse than race B" (terse), people I guess assume "worse" means utter trash. That is probably people just assuming the worst in others, that does happen here quite frequently.

If I say "race A has these benefits, but are not quite as good as race B, and here is why..." (verbose), people just skim what I said and again just assume the worst.

So what should we do to make people properly understand that there are objectively better and worse races, but the differences aren't vast? I've said that before, and people still assume the worst lol.

[zati]

AC is king. Race don't matter, Regen don't matter, FSI don't matter. Those Won't make or break your tanking/pulling/raiding/soloing abilities at 60.. Ac/int/mana/ top 3 priorities for sk at 60.. left out stamina and HP cause nearly all raid gear/high end loot already has them... you can heal HP with worts but you can't increase mana faster than medding or FT2. Time is Mana. Mana is XP. Xp is Time

Leveling is a different story..

Levels 1-9 You have no spells therefor no need for mana. High dmg weapon / HP regen(fungi) / Max HP are top 3 priorities which is the same for most melee classes. a https://wiki.project1999.com/Runed_Oak_Bow is stronger than a fungi lv 1-5. You will one shot rats/bats in WFP and never get hit. Zero downtime. Prolly 5 shots for black bears. When I made my SK in 2015 I had zero access to all these items. Just bronze and https://wiki.project1999.com/Firerune_Brand I bought for 50p after selling 3-5 HQ bear pelts

Levels 9-45 Different advantages for each race. One might have more mana(erudite/DE) other more HP(ogre/troll) regen(Iksar/troll). For the most part you will still use spook the dead/darkness to fear kite undead in zones you can find safe areas to do so.... But really 90% of the time you'll have to face tank. Context matters are you gonna Solo or group? Unless you are 100% soloing these levels you'll always have a healer with you in a group or some sort of support.. Atleast I did befallen>Unrest>Guk>Sol.b etc I always had a group wit a healer in it. Then you need less hp and more ac/int/clickies to pull mobs faster. SK can't pull aggro or pull mobs without mana = no XP. I think this is where BE shines, but it definitely isn't 100% necessary..make your cleric or druid root mobs on incoming.. less mana used.

Levels 45-60 there's really only a few places SK can solo..regardless of gear. Unless you are a super twink or deleveled or access to being fully buffed by friends 24/7.. you'll be fear kiting undead in KC,HS,Trakanons teeth, Gukbottom(Yes u can hit lv 60 here) or even using normal Fear in velks/hole/etc...BE gloves is probably the only piece I still carry around with me and has saved me from multiple wipes. In the long run when soloing these will make you level faster than an Iksar doing the same. 60 mana to snare a mob 2-3 times until it dies. Again context matters .. How many mobs are available? If you only got 4 mobs - 5mobs to clear before respawns then BE gloves won't mean anything. You are limited by the camp not Mana or clickies. If you are in a camp you can clear 10+ mobs before respawns; Yes having free snares is the way to go.

If I could redo it I'd put all my starting points into INT then Sta.. as a DE

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by zati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but you can't increase mana faster than medding or FT2. Time is Mana. Mana is XP.

You can increase mana faster than medding or FT2. You do that by not spending mana in the first place. That is what clickies allow you to do. You can save thousands of mana per hour using clickies, which is the equivalent of having extra mana regeneration and casting those spells instead.

That is why Blood Ember is typically better than Greenmist. Mana is the bottleneck for Shadowknights, as your post suggests, and clickies are saving you mana.

There are people who choose not to use Blood Ember clickies for whatever reason, and that is perfectly fine. You aren't required to play the game as optimally as possible to have fun or make progress.

I am simply pointing out that clickies ARE the equivalent to FT items. Fungi Staff, as an example, is basically an FT2 item for Shamans because it saves 1200 mana per hour on casting Regeneration.

[Jimjam]

Personally I like eruds cos they can fashion quest in flayed skin and loot reclaim energy at low levels. I put 10 str 5 agi 5 dex cos i believe (no evidence) that skill ups are much slower below 75 dex (eqemu code doesn’t back this up - i think it is a custom correction implemented by p99 - one day I may test it).

In the hey day of dwerium trio on live i had a ds/regen build erud SK that could solo naggy… this may have biased me toward them.

My first toon on p99 was a troll sk though - their stats/regen felt like it made up for gear gap as an impoverished newb (in those days guk was well farmed and you’d receive many gifts xping in the area) … my trio partners were enc/druid and i ended up rerolling halfling warrior cos they complained how much xp slowed down with fatty hybrid tank compared to solo.

[Snaggles]

I did two Magelos with very casual gear. I expect the total of this to be less than 100k. The mask of the shadows on the dark elf is redundant UV but I wanted it to be consistent. It’s not a bad set for any SK shopping in the tunnel.


https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight2

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight


There are intensive benefits to each race; with varying degrees of importance depending on how you PERSONALLY weigh these:

* Levelling speed (0-20% xp penalty)
* Mana pool (at least an extra drain soul for smalls)
* HP pool (per the above gearset only will cap with riotous health)
* Strength or attack cap (with this mediocre tank gear none will cap with Focus of Spirit but some FAR under cap)
* Intrinsic shrink (or it’s needed)
* Regen or no regen(+8hp standing)
* 2H slam/bash (fatties only, or w/Epic)
* Blood Ember Clicks (all but Iksar)
* Greenmist and Stone of Morid (Iksar only)
* Ashenbone Shield (small races only)
* Frostreaver (Human,Ogre, Troll, Iksar only)
* Faction differences
* Iksar 2hs swing animation is weird
* Frontal Bash Immunity (reduces chance of a slight stun/interupt, Ogres only)
* Iksar AC Bonus (I understand this is maybe 20 displayed difference with the same gear, TBD)

I strongly believe knights tanking stuff is a thing at 60. I do all the time without BiS and with enough healing and the proper gear many raid named targets can be. More casual stuff (non raid named) is frequently and preferably knight tanked. After the 2h change knights do solid raid dps with the right buffs and weapons so again play what you want and if you have a more ideal class for the encounter play that instead. Common sense really.

With quality raid gear (aka not the Magelo links) capping stamina and strength is very possible for smalls. 2h bash is not a notable DPS increase on a lvl 70 target (it’s as stupid as 8hp regen). If anything more frail sk’s and pallies have a leg up with a larger manapool. If they can tap they can live longer through AoE’s without needing heals.

Casual players are going to struggle in some ways and breeze in others. They will fit better in some easy zones with really high ZEM’s (Sol A, HK). They will likely level faster even without some of the perks of the “monster races” because you have to kill at least 20% faster with an Iksar or Troll to match a non-XP penalize. Often when it really matters in the high 50’s you are killing about or two npcs every 6-12 minutes which you can easily recover mana and health wise by sitting and waiting. Casual raiders who obsess with capping stats will struggle…you can get a small to 205 stamina but often your Str will lag behind in the mid 100’s (asking a sham for Furious Strength is a pain for everyone so you likely will just be doing less dps most the time).

The true best perk is what you look like. If you like it, you will likely enjoy it more with quality gear. If you hate it at level 55 shroud of undeath will let you be a skeleton. Losing 2h bash but giving some faction perks and fix the 2hs Iksar swing animation. That said, if you are picking a race for “superiority” over just fun or personal aesthetics you are have caught a terminal case of edgelord’itus. Consider not playing a knight because every time a warrior is picked to tank the big shiny mob or a real dps smokes you, you will probably fall into a dark sad place.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That said, if you are picking a race for “superiority” over just fun or personal aesthetics you are have caught a terminal case of edgelord’itus. Consider not playing a knight because every time a warrior is picked to tank the big shiny mob or a real dps smokes you, you will probably fall into a dark sad place.

There are three kinds of players:

1. Fashion Questers
2. Min/Maxers
3. People who just play

There is nothing wrong with any kind of player. Let people have fun as they wish. Just give people objectively correct information on the game and let them decide how they want to play. There's no reason to bash one type of player. I enjoy playing Troll for both fashion and Min/Max purposes. Trolls have the best animation set in the game, and great armor. They also happen to be the Min/Max choice for a solo focused Shadowknight.

[Snaggles]

If you are a true minmaxer consider hitting 60.