5-4 incoming?

[robayon]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Notice how quickly we shut the hell up about Ukraine? It went from "oh the Russians are killing those helpless innocent Ukrainians!" to "oh they might not let us kill helpless innocent babies anymore!"

I don't understand this or who you are being critical of here. I think about all kinds of things, sometimes at the same time and sometimes later down the road. I think about things I wasn't even alive to witness. Who cares? The average person these days has the attention span of a goldfish, it's a direct result of all the various forces present in the information age, which has become an ironic name

[MrSparkle001]

Originally Posted by Lojik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bringing a human into the world is a long, often unsuccessful and often dangerous process (especially for the human being brought into the world.) If we adopt the view that any abortion is murder, does that mean that anytime a woman is pregnant and then ceases to be, that we need the government to conduct an investigation? Miscarriages are common, probably 1/3 of pregnancies end in miscarriage. There are probably thousands of cases yearly where American women are pregnant, miscarry, and don't even know it.

I'd say it has to be willful. There has to be intent to end the pregnancy.

Haven't there been cases where someone was prosecuted not only for killing a woman but killing the woman's unborn child along with her? Should I google it and see if my memory is correct?

Originally Posted by robayon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't understand this or who you are being critical of here. I think about all kinds of things, sometimes at the same time and sometimes later down the road. I think about things I wasn't even alive to witness. Who cares? The average person these days has the attention span of a goldfish, it's a direct result of all the various forces present in the information age, which has become an ironic name

I just find it amusing how quickly our public outrage disappears when something new to bother ourselves with comes along.

[Reiwa]

Originally Posted by Lojik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ignoring any potential negative societal effects from declaring any sort of abortion murder, it presents a heck of a lot of practical issues that need to be dealt with:

Bringing a human into the world is a long, often unsuccessful and often dangerous process (especially for the human being brought into the world.) If we adopt the view that any abortion is murder, does that mean that anytime a woman is pregnant and then ceases to be, that we need the government to conduct an investigation? Miscarriages are common, probably 1/3 of pregnancies end in miscarriage. There are probably thousands of cases yearly where American women are pregnant, miscarry, and don't even know it.

If you're saying humanity begins at conception, then should all these humans be given the same rights and protections as any US citizen? If the answer is yes, then what solution can we give that doesn't involve policing every woman's body? Should all miscarriages be investigated? If a woman does not do exactly as prescribed in order to bring a healthy baby into the world (maybe she ate fast food a few times) is she now guilty of manslaughter? Criminal negligence?

What about ectopic pregnancies? A fertilized egg that has 0% chance of viability and is dangerous to the mother. If there's abortion in that case, is that murder? What about cases where known birth defects mean a child will be born with life expectancies of less than a year? Less than a month? Are abortions in that case murder?

Aside from the from the physical difficulties of childbirth, the responsibilities, the inconveniences of pregnancy, pregnancy almost always takes a much bigger emotional toll on the woman than the man. Miscarriages of wanted pregnancies can devastate mothers emotionally, even miscarriages of unwanted or unplanned pregnancies can take an enormous emotional toll on the mother. To then weigh on them the potential to have their privacy invaded and suspicion turned on them of somehow killing their baby to me seems cruel. And yet, if you subscribe to the black and white view that abortion is murder, and that a conceived child is a human, full stop, I don't see how you can reconcile that without being exceptionally cruel to mothers in their darkest hour.

What is miscarriage? What happens to the baby and is there malice and intent?

Also why is it a baby now? It was a fetus when it suited your arguments but you got sloppy.

[Reiwa]

Originally Posted by Horza [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Only took 24 hours for conservatives to start frothing about Plan B, the midterms really are going to be a bloodbath.

argue. don't just try to hurt feelings!

[robayon]

Originally Posted by Reiwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

argue. don't just try to hurt feelings!

[bomaroast]

Don't think. Don't empathize with either mother, father or unborn. Just parrot. Those other people are nasty and wrong, you and your people are good and right.

[starkind]

Originally Posted by Reiwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

argue. don't just try to hurt feelings!

I come here so I can get radicaluleized by the best hoomans have to offer.

[Lojik]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd say it has to be willful. There has to be intent to end the pregnancy.

My point is, if we accept that the conceived child is a human, full stop, and that killing that human is murder, full stop, doesn't that mean they should be awarded the same kinds of protections as a US citizen would be granted? Accidentally killing someone with your car can result in a manslaughter charge, why not improperly caring for the unborn child in pregnancy?

How do you determine intent? Usually that's done with some kind of investigation, correct? In my opinion, there are issues with enforcement that either infringe upon a persons right to their own body, their own privacy, or do not allow equal protection under the law for the tiniest of humans.

Originally Posted by Reiwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What is miscarriage? What happens to the baby and is there malice and intent?

Also why is it a baby now? It was a fetus when it suited your arguments but you got sloppy.

Well, as to your second point, I did not once use the word "fetus," and if I wrote "bringing a healthy fetus into this world," that doesn't make sense. I tried to use language which adopted the position that a human's life begins at conception, which is what seems to be a basic tenet of pro life philosophy, no?

By the way, I don't think think anything I posted refutes the claim that a human's life begins at conception, nor am I even arguing that. My point is, if we do adopt the view that 1) a human's life beings at conception and 2) abortion is murder, then we now have lots of issues that come with this that need to be sorted out that I do not believe can be broken down into nice neatly black and white stances like "abortion is murder."

[Reiwa]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Haven't there been cases where someone was prosecuted not only for killing a woman but killing the woman's unborn child along with her? Should I google it and see if my memory is correct?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rae_Carruth

Originally Posted by Lojik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point is, if we accept that the conceived child is a human, full stop, and that killing that human is murder, full stop, doesn't that mean they should be awarded the same kinds of protections as a US citizen would be granted? Accidentally killing someone with your car can result in a manslaughter charge, why not improperly caring for the unborn child in pregnancy?

How do you determine intent? Usually that's done with some kind of investigation, correct? In my opinion, there are issues with enforcement that either infringe upon a persons right to their own body, their own privacy, or do not allow equal protection under the law for the tiniest of humans.



Well, as to your second point, I did not once use the word "fetus," and if I wrote "bringing a healthy fetus into this world," that doesn't make sense. I tried to use language which adopted the position that a human's life begins at conception, which is what seems to be a basic tenet of pro life philosophy, no?

By the way, I don't think think anything I posted refutes the claim that a human's life begins at conception, nor am I even arguing that. My point is, if we do adopt the view that 1) a human's life beings at conception and 2) abortion is murder, then we now have lots of issues that come with this that need to be sorted out that I do not believe can be broken down into nice neatly black and white stances like "abortion is murder."

Can't reply to all of that but I would say, under that definition, going to the pharmacy and acquiring an abortifact would be premeditated and intentional.

The accidental miscarriage thing I can only think we'd have to turn the homicide stack upside down to charge for intentional murder but not unintentional manslaughter? Or is that in already?

[Jibartik]

It's ironic that the same people that dont think they should pay their student debt, think that they should be able to kill babies after they got a hot load of cum injection.