Tab targeting has been silently removed...

[Vexenu]

You seem to be confused about the nature of the nerf. You can still target the nearest mob with a keyboard bind. You just can't cycle through nearby targets with a keystroke. You can still /assist with one button press. There is zero reason why your disabled friend cannot play a Mage on Green. He might not be able to do some more complicated solo splits using root nets or handle adds as well as before. But he can easily group or duo with a Mage and lose basically zero effectiveness from this nerf. I know that for a fact because I barely ever used cycle targeting on my Mage.

[cd288]

Didn't people post links earlier in this thread showing that cycle targeting was in the game at some point in 1999?

[3d_glasses]

Originally Posted by Treehorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which is harder, to cook spaghetti, or compose a violin concerto? Which requires more skill?

Now cut off your hands, and try to cook the spaghetti.

Cooking spaghetti without hands is hard in a different way. That doesn’t mean it requires more skill. It means it requires more endurance for frustration.

But I guess I’m the asshole for wanting to play violin. Some seem to have forgotten that the attitude of “if you don’t like the changes I want, don’t play this game”, is how we ended up with Luclin and PoP.



There’s a Karana of difference between a person living with disability to manage through one or two pulls, and sustaining through 30+ minutes at a time. My friend can barely grip a mouse. He can make a left click, but not with precision. Click targeting for him is a major challenge. He was playing on a mage.

I agree that EQ, with tab targeting, is an extremely accessible MMO. That’s one of the reasons we all played Blue in the first place.



I didn’t want to tell his story without permission. It was a really hard emotional thing — there’s not many games he can play so he was really looking forward to green. The reason he was happy for me to include more personal details, is specifically that there are many more people like him who either won’t be able to play, won’t be able to play nearly as much, or for whom playing will be an exercise in painful frustration, because of the removal of tab targeting.

It is what it is.

That is a pretty ridiculous comparison. If i understand correctly: you are a person with no hands and you're trying to understand which is harder to do: cook spaghetti or compose a violin concerto. This is the reason why there is a clearly objective way the targeting system with mouse could be deemed as poor? Youre lambasting me because I am trying to take away your hands or take away your ability to achieve some kind of nuance hands provide? Again you prove an insufficient argument: what is it that is logically binding your strange double metaphor to skill against the lack of tab targeting? Can i not throw it back at you - the skill and use of a mouse requires the finesse of a violin player, without it we are playing the game like brutish pasta chefs.
This completely ignores the fact that musical composition can be done without an instrument or even hands....but please the obvious loss of musical virtuosity is the sad fate of a handless spaghetti maker

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Didn't people post links earlier in this thread showing that cycle targeting was in the game at some point in 1999?

No.

Lots of people confusing cycle targeting and true classic tab targeting though.

If you think you need to use a mouse to get most the targeting done in the absence of cycle closest npc then you are bad at eq, should feel bad and don't deserve cycle target.

Work on the rp elements of your toon.

Originally Posted by 3d_glasses [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is a pretty ridiculous comparison. If i understand correctly: you are a person with no hands and you're trying to understand which is harder to do: cook spaghetti or compose a violin concerto. This is the reason why there is a clearly objective way the targeting system with mouse could be deemed as poor? Youre lambasting me because I am trying to take away your hands or take away your ability to achieve some kind of nuance hands provide? Again you prove an insufficient argument: what is it that is logically binding your strange double metaphor to skill against the lack of tab targeting? Can i not throw it back at you - the skill and use of a mouse requires the finesse of a violin player, without it we are playing the game like brutish pasta chefs.
This completely ignores the fact that musical composition can be done without an instrument or even hands....but please the obvious loss of musical virtuosity is the sad fate of a handless spaghetti maker

I like how he switched from compose (easy buy in) and moved them goalposts to play (better supports his argument).

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No.

Lots of people confusing cycle targeting and true classic tab targeting though.

If you think you need to use a mouse to get most the targeting done in the absence of cycle closest npc then you are bad at eq, should feel bad and don't deserve cycle target.

Work on the rp elements of your toon.

Cool, so I ask a simple question for clarification and get insulted in response. Seems logical. Guess I ran into one of the pricks on the server [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Jimjam]

Yes. But i am 3rd mob deep so you can't get a target on me.

[FishBait01]

no tab targeting is aids.

Can't imagine playing a chanter on green.

mouseclicking is disgusting, I feel like one of those disphits that clack their spell gems to cast

[soronil]

Originally Posted by Treehorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is also an accessibility issue. Gamers with physical disabilities, even issues as common as arthritis, are now being disabled from playing the game that they love. My RL friend has MS. He tried playing on beta with tab targeting gone. For him, it’s now truly and completely unplayable.

The reason he was happy for me to include more personal details, is specifically that there are many more people like him who either won’t be able to play, won’t be able to play nearly as much, or for whom playing will be an exercise in painful frustration, because of the removal of tab targeting.

It is what it is.

I am sorry that your friend is sick. That is terrible. But your comments are asinine.

Target cycling helps SOME situations using SOME strategies with SOME classes.

Why doesn't your friend play any of the 7+ classes that simply need to /assist tank?
Why don't you guys utilize one of the many comps / pulling strategies that are able to consistently solo pull?
Why can't your friend literally walk 5 feet over to put the mob he wants to target closest to him?
How was your friend able to determine with minimal beta testing that the game was "utterly and completely unplayable"?

If you guys want to play together, there are so many ways to make it work.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by FishBait01 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no tab targeting is aids.

Can't imagine playing a chanter on green.

mouseclicking is disgusting, I feel like one of those disphits that clack their spell gems to cast

You're thinking of cycle targetting. Vanilla has tab targetting. Don't use mouse, use keyboard commands, positioning and manipulation of mob logic and pathing.

[Treehorn]

Originally Posted by 3d_glasses [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is a pretty ridiculous comparison. If i understand correctly: you are a person with no hands and you're trying to understand which is harder to do: cook spaghetti or compose a violin concerto. This is the reason why there is a clearly objective way the targeting system with mouse could be deemed as poor? Youre lambasting me because I am trying to take away your hands or take away your ability to achieve some kind of nuance hands provide? Again you prove an insufficient argument: what is it that is logically binding your strange double metaphor to skill against the lack of tab targeting? Can i not throw it back at you - the skill and use of a mouse requires the finesse of a violin player, without it we are playing the game like brutish pasta chefs.
This completely ignores the fact that musical composition can be done without an instrument or even hands....but please the obvious loss of musical virtuosity is the sad fate of a handless spaghetti maker

I'm not sure if you're deliberately misconstruing what I've been saying, or just failing to understand.

I'm personally content with the idea of having to mouseclick, in one respect. It allows the players who are the most skillful AND adaptable to rise above the rest, and stand-out. In some respects it increases the challenge, and therefore makes the game even more rewarding. But the game is already extremely rewarding and challenging, with tab targeted included. Tab targeting removes one aspect of the challenge, there's no doubt. But it's a shitty challenge. It's clunky, frustrating controls that were quickly done away with in live, because they made the game far less fun on an hour-to-hour basis. Because yes, it raises the skill-floor. But it also lowers the skill-ceiling. That's what you seem to be missing from the violin/spaghetti analogy, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

It is not possible to be as effective at crowd control without tab targeting, as it is with tab targeting. In a perfect group, with an experienced, component tank, using multiple keyboard commands? Sure. But that isn’t the reality of P1999 for the vast majority of players and groups. Tab targeting permits sublime and skillful CC when the worst-case scenarios happen, when people mess up or aren’t optimal, masterful players. This is the majority of the EQ experience for the majority of players. The server stats show most people never hit raiding level, and primarily grind in PUGs. I can say from my casual experience playing mid-level on blue at three points (beginning, middle and end of the beta cycle), that it's extraordinarily rare to find a player who doesn't regularly make mistakes.

Tab targeting is the hands that allow for skillful, rewarding crowd control in the unpredictable environment that we usually find ourselves in. Mouse clicking is the blunt instrument that reduces us all to pasta boiling. There is no finesse to it. There is endurance of the frustration.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're thinking of cycle targetting. Vanilla has tab targetting. Don't use mouse, use keyboard commands, positioning and manipulation of mob logic and pathing.

Maybe you know something I don't... which keyboard commands are you referring to, beyond those listed here and here?

Originally Posted by soronil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am sorry that your friend is sick. That is terrible. But your comments are asinine.

Target cycling helps SOME situations using SOME strategies with SOME classes.

Why doesn't your friend play any of the 7+ classes that simply need to /assist tank?
Why don't you guys utilize one of the many comps / pulling strategies that are able to consistently solo pull?
Why can't your friend literally walk 5 feet over to put the mob he wants to target closest to him?
How was your friend able to determine with minimal beta testing that the game was "utterly and completely unplayable"?

If you guys want to play together, there are so many ways to make it work.

1) To repeat, it's not an issue of a one-off hypothetical situation. It's an issue of hour-by-hour, realistic gameplay reality.
2) It's not just my friend, it's a significant percentage of the player base that is less privileged than the very few who a) post frequently on the forums b) 'master' the game to the point where they've lost touch with the gameplay experience of the majority.