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  #31  
Old 09-16-2023, 09:02 AM
magnetaress magnetaress is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
AC got a big revamp in luclin/pop era. It hardly represents the trilogy era tbh.
Agree
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Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I wouldn't be surprised if during trilogy shield didn't get it's improved status over other AC items.
Respectfully disagree <3 I feel like the shield ac thing over cap is by design and OG code !

I feel like buffs worked this way too ! And the extra AC from AGI ! I remember tons of enchanters and paladins rolling big AGI and rolling around with big shields and in Kunark everyone rolled with a big shield once they got in a raid org. Especially troll SKs which didn't even need to. So there where definately v tangible bennies !

<3 <3 <3
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  #32  
Old 09-16-2023, 11:02 AM
Arvan Arvan is offline
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since p99 doesn't publish any of their numbers you will forever have only a guess unless you do a massive research project/parse yourself
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Hey CSR When Will PNP Rule 14 Be Enforced?
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  #33  
Old 09-16-2023, 11:58 AM
magnetaress magnetaress is offline
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I don't think it's a big deal since min/maxing isn't a big deal rly.
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  #34  
Old 09-16-2023, 12:37 PM
Arvan Arvan is offline
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Originally Posted by magnetaress [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Agree

Respectfully disagree <3 I feel like the shield ac thing over cap is by design and OG code !

I feel like buffs worked this way too ! And the extra AC from AGI ! I remember tons of enchanters and paladins rolling big AGI and rolling around with big shields and in Kunark everyone rolled with a big shield once they got in a raid org. Especially troll SKs which didn't even need to. So there where definately v tangible bennies !

<3 <3 <3
most people 90%+? were absolutely dogshit at everquest and had close to zero idea how the game actually worked in era
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Hey CSR When Will PNP Rule 14 Be Enforced?
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  #35  
Old 09-16-2023, 01:53 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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Most were terribly bad and it's funny to read through their strategies. But some knew quite a bit, including the use of bark pots for specific targets, which was surprising.
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  #36  
Old 09-16-2023, 04:21 PM
Jimjam Jimjam is offline
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since p99 doesn't publish any of their numbers you will forever have only a guess unless you do a massive research project/parse yourself
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Originally Posted by magnetaress [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I don't think it's a big deal since min/maxing isn't a big deal rly.
Yea the mystery, speculation and rumours really is a huge part of the draw for me. So many people lament EQs opaque mechanics but I kinda love it.
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  #37  
Old 09-16-2023, 08:20 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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https://web.archive.org/web/20040919...p/t-21722.html

Quote:
aress
Question: For several months in the Future plans section , there was a blurb about reviewing shields:

(I pulled this from Future Plans, November 2003)

Shields and blocking

We're planning on reviewing the possibility of giving an innate chance to block when using a shield. We've been hoping to do this for a while, and it should be getting a realistic review in the near future. We'd like to increase the value of shields, and make it a worthwhile choice for players who might normally dual-wield weapons or use a two-handed weapon. We plan on balancing this against classes which use shields by default, and therefore wouldn't be making any trade-offs to equip a shield.

Can we get some kind of update on what happened with this? It just disappeared with no feedback as to if anything was done, if it's still planned, if it was scrapped, etc etc.


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Kytherea
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The information I received...

"This was idea from long ago that we never really finalized. Shields do help more than most players realize - they increase your AC cap directly - but this is still a possibility. Various other game and class balance issues have and continue to take precedence over this."

Ky

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Jovec
TSW has some more developer comments on the effect of shields and AC caps in this thread (http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...ead.php?t=7643).

From that thread:

Orginally posted by Kavhok
The cap on AC in the Velious era wasn't a soft cap; it was a hard cap that had been there from day 1. After a certain point, which differed for each class, the benefit of more AC didn't just diminish - it dropped to nothing.

The change I referred to, just before PoP, changed that from a hard cap to a soft cap. You get a percentage of the amount over that soft cap. Shields increase both your total and your soft cap, making them more effective than any other item with equal AC.
Your mitigation AAs, level, and class also affect the cap and the percentage return for AC over it.

Separate from this, there are diminishing returns if your AC is much greater than the NPC's attack. This is due to the nature of the formulas that produce the probability distributions that have been well documented on this board.

Does that help?

- Kavhok, SOE

And also interesting.

Orginally posted by Kavhok
3) Yes, the mitigation AAs will not do anything for you if your AC isn't high enough. However, the median level 65 warrior is over the cap even with both Luclin and PoP mitigation AAs maxed, so you can safely assume you're getting the full benefit out of them.

- Kavhok, SOE

-Jovec
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  #38  
Old 09-17-2023, 01:16 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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The previous steelwarriors link within the quote above does not work, but the first page can be accessed using the link below.


https://web.archive.org/web/20040805...php?t=7643&amp

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Old 06-17-2004 #5
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If your AC is high enough, then yes, a 50 AC shield will help you more than a 50 AC breastplate. The benefit increases as the AC on the shield increases - it isn't a static bonus.

- Kavhok

How high is high enough? Does this mean tanking older content with a shield helps more than new content? This does seem to be talking about the ac softcap, which hasn't really been found AFAIK in GoD or really even in PoP.

EDIT: Fixed the quote.
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Old 06-17-2004 #6
Kavhok
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AC functions the same way in all zones. Some old NPCs may have lower attack than new ones, but the formulas for combat do not change.

The AC formulas were changed a short while before PoP shipped. Perhaps that was confused as a content change in PoP. However, the Avatar of War does less damage to a warrior with 1800 AC than one with 1300 AC just the way that Bertox does. It doesn't matter that he's "old content" - his attack is still fairly high.

- Kavhok, SOE
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Old 06-17-2004 #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AThousandYoung
It sounds to me as though the statement means:

There is an AC cap. After AC goes above a certain point, the value of each point of AC decreases or becomes nonexistent.

In addition to adding AC points, shields raise the value of the AC cap, probably by some percentage of the AC of the shield.

For example - if the AC cap is 2000 without a shield, and a shield with 50 AC is equipped, the new AC cap may be 2050, or 2025. If a shield with 60 AC is equipped, then the new AC cap may be 2060, or 2030.

Well, that's kind of the question we're asking. For example, an alternative interpretation that's still fully consistent with everything the developers have said so far is:

"No matter how high your AC is, and how low the mob's ATK is, the mob *always* has a 5% chance of hitting you for the maximum. Shields reduce this minimum chance to between 1% and 3%, depending on the AC of the shield."

Or "...the mob *always* has a 2% chance of hitting you for any given DI multiplier..."

This "AC softcap" that we have just learned about in these two threads is clearly not the same as the "AC softcap" that people talked about back in Velious days (and which was a local abberation caused by the combination of Velious-era gear limitations and the massive disparity of ATK between the AoW and all of the other Velious-era mobs). So we have a new concept, also called "AC softcap" (and boy, are people gonna get headaches from confusing the two), which is inherent in the calculations for AC, and which shields modify. Let's call the former "the Velious-era 1300 AC softcap", and this new one "the AC formula softcap".

We don't know how the "AC formula softcap" that we're now being told about is implemented, whether it's relative to the mobs or innate to the player character. That's what we're asking about now--exactly what the "AC softcap" that the developers just told us about means.

Fighting for clarity in a confusing world,

Gront/Graa, Ayonae Ro.
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Old 06-17-2004 #10
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The cap on AC in the Velious era wasn't a soft cap; it was a hard cap that had been there from day 1. After a certain point, which differed for each class, the benefit of more AC didn't just diminish - it dropped to nothing.

The change I referred to, just before PoP, changed that from a hard cap to a soft cap. You get a percentage of the amount over that soft cap. Shields increase both your total and your soft cap, making them more effective than any other item with equal AC. Your mitigation AAs, level, and class also affect the cap and the percentage return for AC over it.

Separate from this, there are diminishing returns if your AC is much greater than the NPC's attack. This is due to the nature of the formulas that produce the probability distributions that have been well documented on this board.

Does that help?

- Kavhok, SOE
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  #39  
Old 09-17-2023, 02:44 PM
Jimjam Jimjam is offline
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I got so hard capped reading about how soft caps weren't a thing until imminent pop.

That's not how it works here though - we have quite a generous softcap. Apparently someone found evidence that late velious the hard cap system was eased somewhat, despite what EQ Developer Kavhok claims (that it was hard until PoPish).
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  #40  
Old 09-17-2023, 04:40 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I got so hard capped reading about how soft caps weren't a thing until imminent pop.

That's not how it works here though - we have quite a generous softcap. Apparently someone found evidence that late velious the hard cap system was eased somewhat, despite what EQ Developer Kavhok claims (that it was hard until PoPish).
Nice! Relieved to hear that, since soft cap allows for more carrot on the stick. If nothing else, it definitely seemed like that change was their intention for quite a while so late-Velious is plausible. Interesting that they were wanting to add innate block chance to shields for classes that could also dual wield.
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