Trackers in Agro Range of Raid Targets. Severilous last night, needs community input

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Make a raid discussion post and let the community decide their guilt/innocence and subsequent punishment if necessary.

By post I mean new thread. Since this effects the entire community rather than just your two guilds I believe it should be addressed by everyone.

This is a petition that went over the course of last night while Severilous was in window. This is the current stance of the GMs after the last disaster FFA Severilous.

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hail my fellow Norrathians,

We all know that in the heat of battle things can sometimes not go exactly as planned, and if someone sees somebody else do something, they immediately try to match it or one up it in order to maintain a competitive edge.

That being said, it is absolutely not ok for trackers to be parked on raid spawn locations.

Doing this, figuratively takes a big old dump on the entire purpose for the Staff telling the players we don’t want them poopsocking the raid spawn locations. We also do not want KoS trackers to be able to get afk FTE’s, as we feel this is more in line with using autofire, than it is in the spirit of the rules set forth, rules that, I will remind you, were all agreed on by the players.

Consider this a warning to all guilds, the next time this happens, you can expect a guild suspension. It’s something we take very seriously, and something we do not want to see repeated.

The loots from today’s Severilous will be deleted because the first two guilds on the FTE list were on the raid spawn location, and because the guild that ended up killing and taking the loots did not have a proper FTE, as they did not allow the mob to reset before engaging it.

<3
The Staff

This did not happen last night. TMO/IB began within agro range of Severilous. When asked to move and why, IB responded appropriately, while TMO responded by actually sitting directly on the spawn point. Their leaders response is "prove it" while their member's response was to harass me in and out of game.

Originally Posted by Ella`Ella [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your screenshot fails to show my members response to you and also fails to show a /loc. This is deceptive and inappropriate. Be professional, please.

I already attempted to do that umbrella. See above response. And here are more shots for you.



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IB properly responded. but this is TMO after 3 more hours.

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No response so I make my way up to the spawn point to see what is going on.

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wait, isn't that one of the same TMOs that I asked to move three hours before? Sirken made the stance on this perfectly clear. you don't track from the agro range of a Dragon. This was violated. TMO ended up with the kill.

I cannot say that Taken would have gotten this FTE regardless, but rules were violated. We respected the rules rather than potentially deal with a repeat in history, and now we will never know.

My last post in the currently ongoing petition of the situation:

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

bump.

These screenshots show a period of time of time over three hours where I asked TMO to honor the raid expectations and follow the rules by removing tier trackers from agro range. Their response was to not only not leave agro range, but to go and sit directly on the spawn.

Your requests to try to handle raid disputes between one another has been followed. And as you can see in raid discussion, unbrella's stance is for me to prove it. Other TMO members have responded by harassing me. example below.

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These screenshots here span three hours, have a loc, and anyone can put the pieces together and see that this is the spawn point. I believe this is pretty sufficient "proof". I also believe I have done my part to attempt to to work it out with TMO. It was a simple request. follow the raid rules and move. IB managed to comprehend that. TMO did not.

I am not saying Taken would have gotten the FTE on this regardless, but we will never know that know due to TMO's violation of the raid expectations. If BDA can be suspended from a Class R Nagafen purely off of our interpretation of thier *intent* when they engaged him under 20%. Then this petition should be enough to show that TMO is clearly in violation. I would think similar consequences should be necessary and that their loot being deleted and having to sit out the next FFA Severilous would be acceptable.


Thanks

The response:

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Make a raid discussion post and let the community decide their guilt/innocence and subsequent punishment if necessary.

By post I mean new thread. Since this effects the entire community rather than just your two guilds I believe it should be addressed by everyone.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Feel free to screenshot my post here to show our current stance on the situation.

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SO, since this was a FFA situation and the decision will impact everyone, they have asked for your input. Your turn, community.

[arsenalpow]

Why should the community be forced to decide a punishment? Not even trolling, serious question.

Catherin pointed out an infraction, IB once made aware of the infraction moved. TMO was defiant and trolled in response, never moved, and benefitted from it. Sirken's statement is well known, TMO has raided plenty of times to know this. Why should blatant disregard for a known rule need tacit approval from the community?

I think the complete disregard even after the dialogue shows a behavior pattern that we've seen so many times before. Levy a strong punishment to discourage this type of behavior and to set an example going forward that this type of crap won't be tolerated by the staff or community.

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint

Our mages were with all the other mages when Sev spawned. I'm sure your own trackers can confirm this. Please take down or amend your post in the raid section. Thanks.

I will not, but I will include your PM to me here. And if you guys can respond with some of your own proof that will help. Don't forget to include pictures and locs, and appropriate responses.

if this is the case then great. however this doesn't change that you had to be constantly policied due to your constant attempts to bend the rules.

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint

Sorry I cannot respond in this forum yet. Still waiting on that.

Here are logs from our FTE'er who is a bard with selos running. As you can see it takes him 4 seconds from being summoned before he can jav the dragon, and his first attempt to jav shows him out of range.

[Sun Oct 19 00:31:06 2014] You have been summoned!
[Sun Oct 19 00:31:07 2014] Benjy begins to cast a spell.
[Sun Oct 19 00:31:07 2014] Your song ends.
[Sun Oct 19 00:31:09 2014] Your target is too far away, get closer!
[Sun Oct 19 00:31:09 2014] You cannot see your target.
[Sun Oct 19 00:31:10 2014] Severilous says 'Very cute, mortal. Please, please, don't kill me. Hah! Tell me, are you immune to poison? I certainly hope so. I am.'
[Sun Oct 19 00:31:10 2014] Severilous engages Yibz!

From what I understand, it took time before our trackers were able to get confirmation that they did have to move off of spawn despite being factioned. Never the less, they were off the spawn for a significant amount of time before the dragon spawned.

So I had to police your trackers for over 3 hours because TMO is ignorant of the raid rules? im sorry but I do not really buy that.

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint

Despite what you may think of us. In the middle of the night on a Saturday, we're grateful for anyone who volunteers to track. Sev is low priority. He may be tracked by apps, new members, people returning to the game who may not be 100% aware of every little nuance in the raid rules. Some of these rules are not intuitive.

Yes, ideally they should be aware of the rules. But none were broken this time.

So your trackers were apps and/or recruits and people who had just returned to the game, who volunteered to track, and your guild did not make sure that they were aware of the rules?

I am not sure how you guys operate but when we get a new person out there tracking we make sure they know what the rules are. It is your responsibility to make sure your members are following rules. This rule was the result of a very public situation on a previous FFA sev. This is no excuse. There is no ideally about it, you are expected to know the rules. especially with a crystal clear rule like:

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That being said, it is absolutely not ok for trackers to be parked on raid spawn locations.

If your trackers are on the spawn point of Severilous how is that not a violation of the rules? You should have been disqualified from the encounter immediately when you did not respond to the request to move.

[Argh]

From what I can tell the 'no trackers on spawn point' is with regard only to KoS trackers, as this could be used to get afk FTEs similar to autofire (although the FTE would be illegal, it 'disrupts' the ensuing legal FTE/raid).

If they were KoS trackers then something inline with a warning would be fitting punishment. This is far less egregious than KS'ing a mob which you do not have FTE on, and one warning for a first time infraction followed by a suspension is the standard punishment used for that.

If they were non-KoS trackers then I fail to see anything disruptive, and no punishment is in order.

Also, everyone in that screenshot is in aggro range including you.

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint

We know the rules and we do educate our trackers. If there's ever a misunderstanding that leads to a situation like this, it isn't the end of the world. They should notice that they are incorrect, and fix their mistake. Which they did.

So you say it wasn't their intentions to break any rules. Okay.


Let's look at it this way then:

Awhile back, BDA jumped on a ready to flee Nagafen (about 14% health) that was FFA and taken got the FTE on.

You guys petitioned it, and it went on for months. Taken and BDA had no collaboration on that raid and BDAs decision to get in a few hits in the end was there own. It was not their intentions to "assist" Taken on the Dragon to keep it from you. The Dragon was already dying. We were actually in compete competition with each other.

TMO asserts that it was collaboration and one cannot know their "intent". GMs rule that intent doesn't matter, when a rule is broken a rule is broken and you must accept punishment for that, regardless of your intent.

BDA was required to surrender their next Class R Nagafen.

I do not care what your intent was. You claim it was all in innocence but even if it was that does not matter. BDA says the Nagafen situation was in complete innocence too.

You broke a clear rule. Even after being told about said rule and being asked to move, it was at least 3 hours before you responded to that request, as I had to ask again when you moved CLOSER to the spawn. That is the bottom line of it.

Please have one of your own guild representatives post for you. I have said my piece and everyone else can decide what they feel is appropriate.

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Argh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, everyone in that screenshot is in aggro range including you.

Please explain to me how I am to gather any sort of evidence on what is going on if I do not get close enough for a moment to do so?

[Ella`Ella]

I'm not sure what your logs or screenshots are even showing here and I'm not sure what kind of a case you are trying to make.

Your screen shots have one log of a loc that you're standing on with our mages significantly further away - indeterminable distance from sev spawn point. Simply circling an area in a picture doesn't show much. Also, you are claiming that this went on for several hours, however you haven't provided a single /time. Also, the person who was on our mage claims that they did respond to you.

If this was a concern, my members have no business taking directives from leaders or members of any other guild. They take instructions from our leadership. If members took orders from other guilds' officers, I think TMO would have a few more Crowns' of Rile =P. At no point did you comply with the repeated GM request to resolve the conflict with the guild in question. You have a screenshot of you sending one member of ours a /tell and then nothing again for what you claim to be 3 hours.

In addition to this, there are a couple other elements at play here. For one, you yourself are on the spawn point! And, you're not factioned, whereas our mages our. If there was a chance that Sev spawned while you were building a case against us, you would have gotten aggro yourself and our mages wouldn't, which invalidates your whole case. You were also putting yourself at risk face tracking. If this is really something you are pursuing, I suppose that means we need to petition you for being on the spawn point as well? As a Bard, if you were this concerned, you could have Bind Sight on a target to keep watch.

There is also the fact that our mages were no where near the spawn point when Sev spawned, in fact, they weren't even in Jav distance (significantly further than body aggro).

We would appreciate if you abide by the GM policy of reaching out to guild leadership before filing petitions. Especially where there are more facts to be considered than you are presenting.

Edit: Also, the story I am getting is that Ferment did respond to you telling you that they had moved and then asked if where they moved to was fine. Ferment was showing Pnokk where the spawn point was when you immediately sent them a tell. You were also there (on the spawn point) when they arrived and then you backed up. They moved just a couple minutes later. Also, I believe IB and the other trackers can confirm that for the 9 hours preceding Sev's spawn, all the trackers, including TMOs were on the mountain away from the spawn point. Your screenshot is taken about 10 hours earlier. Pnokk, the other mage in your screenshot also was not on when Sev spawned he logged shortly after your /tell (about 9 hours previous to the spawn). I'm getting a log of when he camped to try and put some of your misguided timeline together.

However as a side note to, 'prove it' - as Alarti can tell you, burden of proof is on the affirmative, not the negative if you're really trying to press me for evidence. You need to prove that your claim in all of this is valid and screenshots with timestamps ALONG with logs (not separate of logs) would be a good start. You could also show some screens of our mages responding to you, which frankly, they don't need to do - you need to contact leadership regarding issues.

[-Catherin-]

ah forget it, deleted this post. Since none of the other guilds are saying anything this isn't going to go anywhere past you and me bickering back and forth. I'll be happy to know that you guys get it and don't try to do this again.