PSA: Regarding Today's Severilous (8/24)

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by wycca

Deru - the reason there aren't any Asgard, AT, or Omni on that hate list is because we followed raid rules.

58 Psyphon Taken 60 Enchanter 18:10:17 321 18:10:26 9 42091 0 850
59 Mirgan Omni 60 Bard 18:10:23 327 18:10:26 3 42153 0 0
60 Fifield Taken 52 Bard 18:10:24 328 18:10:26 2 42091 0 0

Who is this Mirgan fellow with an omni tag 59 people in?

There are seven guilds on this log. Seven. This isn't your basic "GuildA has FTE GuildB killed target."

We still intend to let players work out their own disputes, but because of the number of guilds involved we decided it was best to just end it quickly to get this out of the way.

[arsenalpow]

This Omni fellow that had aggro for all of 3 seconds because Sev died. I don't give a shit that Taken killed the mob, I'm pissed because you're still picking and choosing punishments. The situation still boils down to Guild A FTE Guild B killed. IB did it and got a suspension, BDA did 10% of a FFA Nagafen and is losing A CLASS R NAGAFEN. Taken does it and nothing?? That doesn't make one bit of sense.

[-Catherin-]

Going to have to suspend everyone, so what exactly is there to negotiate... Who gets the longest suspension?

Everyone but Taken, Ateam, and... Omni? were sitting directly on the spawn.

Everyone but Ateam inappropriately engages the dragon

Taken kills the Dragon.



This is looking good for Ateam.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Going to have to suspend everyone, so what exactly is there to negotiate... Who gets the longest suspension?

Everyone but Taken, Ateam, and... Omni? were sitting directly on the spawn.

Everyone but Ateam inappropriately engages the dragon

Taken kills the Dragon.



This is looking good for Ateam.

Stop being willfully ignorant to how this stuff works. Look at Rogean's logs since they have headers. Look at the column towards the right marked "length" that's the amount of time someone had aggro. Being on an encounter list isn't the best thing but getting the fuck out of there is the correct course of action once you realize you don't have FTE. Notice the very short lengths of time for many of the people at the top of the list. Notice the two Taken bards (you and moodie) who have the highest length of time aggroed. Sev needed to reset and he didn't. I'm going to assume (which probably isn't fair) that Taken's call was that the FTE was illegal, therefore the guild that killed it would be awarded loot or some other convoluted scenario so let's drag the mob to TT zoneline and roll the dice.

There no precedence for punishing a guild for being on an encounter log. Omni actively avoided Inny during that class C kill and that was promptly resolved. There however has been multiple instances of precedence when it comes to actively killing a mob knowing you don't have FTE. I'm not angling to punish Taken, I want precedence followed.

BDA is currently being punished for basically the same thing. We engaged a FFA Nagafen that Taken had FTE on at 10%. TMO petitioned that us assisting on the last 10% potentially prevented Taken from wiping thus potentially taking loot out of the mouths of poor starving TMO members. BDA is currently suspended from our next class R rotation Naggy from an FFA encounter. Go ahead and read that again. The GM staff decided that BDA should lose our next class R rotation slot Nagafen (which is a player made agreement) that will come weeks from now because we assisted Taken through no previous agreement on 10% of a dragon. Taken knew they didn't have FTE, yet they still dragged the mob to TT and downed it. Where is the consistency?? Why not follow precedence?? It's patently absurd that BDA is under a class R suspension and Taken wouldn't be.

Either rescind BDA's suspension or punish Taken. You can't have it both ways.

[Ella`Ella]

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[Derubael]

Originally Posted by arsenelpow

The GM staff decided that BDA should lose our next class R rotation slot Nagafen (which is a player made agreement) that will come weeks from now because we assisted Taken through no previous agreement on 10% of a dragon.

I guess I need to better illustrate my point:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

^as you can see by my excellent mspaint circles, There are multiple guilds who grabbed aggro even 30 seconds or a minute after the engage went off. Every one of these guilds are potentially breaking the rule you are referencing above. And of course we'd have to hit AG as well, for the FTE tracker fuckup. So we're basically looking at suspending 3-4 guilds from the next Sev engage - including BDA - over this one pull.

None of you guys should have any business being on that log 30 - 60 seconds after the fact if we are going to follow the "fte is king" rule here.

I circled the length as well, representing how long each player had aggro (ie, these people did not camp to get off the hate list if their 'length' is over ~30 seconds)

This is why we aren't suspending Taken, or anyone else. This situation is not the same as other FTE violations we've had in the past, nor is it close enough to the Nagafen situation Chest is referring to for it to be used as a precedent.

Edit: I forgot to circle the IB and TMO guys, but I circled their length, which was almost 2 minutes in IB's case and nearly 3 in TMO's.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow

The rule is if it isn't your FTE then you don't touch the mob. There's no caveats, there's no special circumstances governing illegal FTEs. The mob must reset. Period.

^Given the situation, I think we can be flexible here. I don't think it's appropriate to suspend you all given the clusterfuck that this pull became.

[arsenalpow]

Being on an encounter list is entirely different from actively killing the mob. Look at the people at the top of the list that immediately gated or died. Ennio and Trouble ran to a zoneline at Selos speed and did not have a dragon in tow. You're conflating the two issues. The bottom line is you're absolute decree of "only kill it if you FTE" was broken and your using irrelevant facts to justify a decision. Look at that Talendor FFA where there were 6 guilds going for him, IB had initial FTE, wiped, then FTE bounced around until Taken had FTE and killed it. I'm sure all 6 guilds were on that log. The point is the encounter log means nothing in an FFA situation where multiple guilds are jockeying for the kill. What matters is FTE and that's why the ruling is absurd.

[Derubael]

Showing up on that encounter log a minute into the engage is essentially breaking the rule all by itself*. So our two options here are:

1) do what we did, and delete the loot

2) ding everyone on this list except Divinity and Omni a Sev.

That's our line of thinking, and our only two options. We think we picked the better one.

edit: *showing up on an encounter log isn't actually breaking the FTE rule all by itself, but could be raid interference depending on how someone shows up on that log and what they do to try and get off of it.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Showing up on that encounter log a minute into the engage is essentially breaking the rule all by itself. So our two options here are:

1) do what we did, and delete the loot

2) ding everyone on this list except Divinity and Omni a Sev.

That's our line of thinking, and our only two options. We think we picked the better one.

What is the precedence for that? Where's the rule stating you can't be on an encounter log for an FFA encounter. Encounter logs are paramount for class specific mobs, lockouts for class R and potentially moving to class C if you already aren't. FFA mobs are a different animal and the way the FFA system is structured you have these types of issues every time.

Go through the last heavily contested FFA mobs. I can guarantee it's a cluttered log full of multiple guilds. The last FFA Talendor that Taken won, one of the more recent Naggys, I'm sure the last FFA VS where indignation trained BDA and IB sniped it, it's always a shitshow. The basic rule always applied though, FTE dictates priority. If you want to ding someone it's on the Taken bards that dragged Sev to the zoneline to be engaged. The majority of people on that list bailed out ASAP.