System rotation target ?

[Rhambuk]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

most of the people i've spoken to in div regarding this have disagreed with me.

You're not a gnome anymore, your words mean nothing.

[Versus]

The mob shouting a name would alleviate the random person whose raid is presently unprepared throwing a Jav/Arrow @ a mob .5 seconds before someone in the prepared raid does.

If this happened, the prepared raid would see it and know to let the unprepared raid wipe, instead of engaging it, (without knowing it was tagged by the unprepared raid .5 seconds beforehand) killing it, and having to hand the loot over because the GM's saw in the logs that the unprepared person actually engaged first.

[Skope]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If most people in your own guild, and the other raiding guilds, all disagree with you... at some point you have to consider the possibility that you're not making sense.

and through damn near 30 pages I haven't seen a single reason as to why i'm wrong, shiftin. Hell, you even agree with some points i've made.

The biggest reason that people have against dumping or shortening variance is one i've stated repeatedly: it doesn't address the issue of GM involvement. Clusterfucks will happen. As I've told Hobby, though, unless there are clear boundaries as to where and how GMs will get involved then you can't really patch that up, can you?

If you're unprepared and pull before you're ready you'll wipe. Have fun with your rezzes. Communication is rather important now, isn't it? So are mind games. Do i even want to engage first? are you sure we should be sitting on trak's spawn point so we get to engage first? Honestly, i would love to see, if only once, 5-6 guilds being fearbombed by trak.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Versus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The mob shouting a name would alleviate the random person whose raid is presently unprepared throwing a Jav/Arrow @ a mob .5 seconds before someone in the prepared raid does.

If this happened, the prepared raid would see it and know to let the unprepared raid wipe, instead of engaging it, (without knowing it was tagged by the unprepared raid .5 seconds beforehand) killing it, and having to hand the loot over because the GM's saw in the logs that the unprepared person actually engaged first.

This is the only concept in this thread that thus far proves to be a change that would work for the better and would be relatively easy to integrate ala Gorenaire's current shout mechanic upon being agroed. DTing mobs still have the issue of first-dead-second-pull agro but if that portion of the rule were to be removed then it would be much more simple.

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you're unprepared and pull before you're ready you'll wipe. Have fun with your rezzes. Communication is rather important now, isn't it? So are mind games. Do i even want to engage first? are you sure we should be sitting on trak's spawn point so we get to engage first? Honestly, i would love to see, if only once, 5-6 guilds being fearbombed by trak.

Who the hell would not be ready for a mob that spawns at a very specific time? With a small variance of even 8 hours you can expect people to sit there buffed and ready to engage. The reason the variance is so big is because it DISSUADES people from sitting on their asses for four days and instead race for targets when they DO spawn.

[Skope]

make it an hour? make it two? So long as it's long enough where it's not free is fine. It's about FTE, aadill, and not sitting there and holding in your piss.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

make it an hour? make it two? So long as it's long enough where it's not free is fine. It's about FTE, aadill, and not sitting there and holding in your piss.

Buffs last about an hour and would be easy to keep up. 8 hours doesn't phase most people with xp mobs around to kill. 24 hours keeps people up at night but not unwilling to give it a shot. 48 hours makes people wary. 96 hours makes people go do other things and play the game.

You admit to the fact that you don't like the variance and expect skill in the form of a mob kill when it's been stressed over and over again that there are MULTIPLE raid guilds on this server, way more than live, that have all the information to engage a target, diminishing that concept.

You claim skill doesn't come from rushing your opponents from all corners of the world in attempts to buff up, setup up a pull spot, and engage the mob with haste without wiping.

To me, you are shooting blanks, bud. FTE exists in the current state. You want more of a dice roll, because there are multiple guilds willing to go to great lengths to beat you out on loot even in your ruleset.

[Skope]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Buffs last about an hour and would be easy to keep up. 8 hours doesn't phase most people with xp mobs around to kill. 24 hours keeps people up at night but not unwilling to give it a shot. 48 hours makes people wary. 96 hours makes people go do other things and play the game.

You admit to the fact that you don't like the variance and expect skill in the form of a mob kill when it's been stressed over and over again that there are MULTIPLE raid guilds on this server, way more than live, that have all the information to engage a target, diminishing that concept.

You claim skill doesn't come from rushing your opponents from all corners of the world in attempts to buff up, setup up a pull spot, and engage the mob with haste without wiping.

To me, you are shooting blanks, bud. FTE exists in the current state. You want more of a dice roll, because there are multiple guilds willing to go to great lengths to beat you out on loot even in your ruleset.

aadill, not only have you been completely wrong before (a la poopsock) but you're incredibly wrong again. Your notion of raiding here isn't everquest. It's unnecessary p99 behavior. You've raped raiding so hard that if you were to take a time machine back to your original EQ server you wouldn't know what they hell they were doing. you'd point and laugh and call them pussies because they had free time on their hands and planned their raids a week in advance.

What the fuck is wrong with you? "There are many raid guilds on this server" isn't a viable reason to keep a massive fucking window. That's an excuse that says: I like the way my assembly-line of a guild has operated since early last year and I don't like the idea of competition from various angles by various guilds in the spirit of classic. I'm not shitting on competition. I don't want a rotation, i don't want poopsocking, but let's at least open your eyes and see that the raiding scene here is the furthest thing from the classic experience as there is on this server, and it has nothing to do with how many guilds there are that can engage and drop a target.

As I've said before, if it's not classic it's not my job to explain why something that IS classic should be put in, but rather why something that ISNT classic is left in. If you want the answer for two-boxing you're welcomed to use the search feature, as i'm sure there are already half a billion threads and explanations on that one.

[Troy]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You want more of a dice roll,

Ultimately that's all EverQuest is... a series of dice rolls.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

aadill, not only have you been completely wrong before (a la poopsock) but you're incredibly wrong again. Your notion of raiding here isn't everquest. It's unnecessary p99 behavior. You've raped raiding so hard that if you were to take a time machine back to your original EQ server you wouldn't know what they hell they were doing. you'd point and laugh and call them pussies because they had free time on their hands and planned their raids a week in advance.

What the fuck is wrong with you? "There are many raid guilds on this server" isn't a viable reason to keep a massive fucking window. That's an excuse that says: I like the way my assembly-line of a guild has operated since early last year and I don't like the idea of competition from various angles by various guilds in the spirit of classic. I'm not shitting on competition. I don't want a rotation, i don't want poopsocking, but let's at least open your eyes and see that the raiding scene here is the furthest thing from the classic experience as there is on this server, and it has nothing to do with how many guilds there are that can engage and drop a target.

As I've said before, if it's not classic it's not my job to explain why something that IS classic should be put in, but rather why something that ISNT classic is left in. If you want the answer for two-boxing you're welcomed to use the search feature, as i'm sure there are already half a billion threads and explanations on that one.

Correct me if I'm wrong but your guild as a whole publicly announced that it was removing itself from the raiding scene the moment variance hit. Upon Sky being released you re-entered the raid scene on old-world mobs, eventually moving to Sky, as well. After Kunark released I have honestly and genuinely not seen a Divinity tag*. I assume that this is due to people wanting to play the game and explore their old favorite haunts, much like everyone else on the server is doing.

The GMs have pointed out that the variance isn't to reduce poopsocking it's to get people to shut the fuck up and win or lose without having to be babysat by someone who doesn't care how the population deals with raiding in the first place. You can use the search function for posts on that just as easily as you can find stuff on two-boxing. The raiding guilds that continued to poopsock did so because they wanted the mobs. It was stupid and that has since ended; not a single guild is poopsocking a target unless the last window on the last raid target for the week is about to close, something we've seen twice.

The mention of multiple raid guilds on this server has everything to do with everyone wanting something but no one reaching out for it. Ascension, at this point, races for mobs and on multiple occasions has succeeded. TMO has also put up a fight in racing for mobs. Vesica Dei has also gone after mobs. Even better, on patch days it's an easter egg hunt and everyone is a winner. Each of these guilds are willing and capable of attacking a raid target. All of these guilds, with prior knowledge of the spawn time of a raid mob, will be there to kill each and every mob independent of your idea that this is somehow more fair: Press target nearest NPC and auto attack with everyone buffed and in the right spot, something any guild with prior knowledge can and will do. The entire argument IS based on numbers, so throwing that under the rug misses the entire point of what everyone in this thread has been saying.

This server EMULATES classic. It is NOT classic. There are, as previously mentioned, a LARGE number of guilds that consider themselves raiding guilds that WILL fight for the limited number of targets.. a MUCH larger number of guilds than on live. What proves identity of any one of these raiding guilds is the willingness to adapt to a system that still provides competition for a much larger population of individuals that wish to raid end-game content.
Fear had 150 people in it last week because 150 people wanted dracoliche and CT. 30 or 40 some people got it. 100 others showed up. Expect that at every raid target if it's plannable in advance, classic or not.

Do I contend that the variance window is fair and reasonable? No, I think it should be halved and an FTE shout should be introduced for raid mobs. That will reduce burnout on a population of a server that wants to kill mobs and currently does and also reduce frustration of players that want to kill mobs and do not currently have the means to do so. What you have been unyieldingly suggesting is that somehow a "classic" raid environment is the best idea for a server that simply cannot support that style of play for such a top-heavy population.

I do agree with you that classically-aligned "linear" style raid encounters such as NToV and the like SHOULD be considered non-varianced and simply worked out amongst the guilds that wish to kill the mobs and can find ways to schedule things. On my server, it was very common to find that "lower-tier" stuff went untouched by high end raiding guilds but they still attempted to share the high end stuff with each other simply to not have any confrontation. The rift between the high end raiding guilds become larger and even that content didn't matter as much. As of right now, though, the only content are things that EVERY guild STILL WANTS and therefore compete to get said items by actually racing each other to get the kill, not the first hit, which is what the current system provides: a reasonable level of competition that actually merits the most deserving entity (explained as such by multiple people as the group that puts in the most time, has the fastest mobilization and sound strategies to engage and kill the mob).

The only idea that you've mentioned is FTE, which already exists, but in a non-varianced manner. You gave no solution to how this would pan out except that, to paraphrase, "it somehow would." Upon revelation of the idea that has already been discussed last year to introduce an FTE shout system to simply make the lives of GMs easier, you added that to the list. I agree with that idea and I agreed with it last year. What I don't agree with is how you ask everyone to PM you and when someone does they find that your manner is much the same as it has been in this public channel: obstinate.

I suggest that you stop trying to turn this into an RnF thread. You've admitted that a portion of your guild disagrees with you but attacking people that are attempting to persuade you from your argument whilst being flamed in return isn't exactly going to help your case. We aren't trolling you or being hard-headed, we've been giving you our firsthand perspective on the situation and what it actually entails. Posts like "Does this mean I win?" really irritate me because in my opinion you've only solidified my perspective even further that the rules are agreeable to the people that are currently participating.

Originally Posted by Troy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ultimately that's all EverQuest is... a series of dice rolls.

Indeed. In a sense, this is very true. Lots of things go to random chance but others are left to other devices. Project1999 has introduced a much more meaningful "dice roll" that requires players to be situationally aware outside of a week-long wait, 5 minute raid before they log off again after making an attempt on a mob. Some people play more than that and can log in for 2, 4, 6, 12, 24, or even more hours before they feel like logging off again. I'm not faulting them or applauding them for being logged on for so long, but I can tell they have dedication to a cause, whether it be a guild or simply the game.

*Except for Ninik.

PS I write books.

[Skope]

You're right, it's not a divinity thing; it's a Skope thing. And you're actually agreeing with me and you see the errors in the current system, and btw, so have the other people who've been trying to flamebait me.

What you despise is the fact that I've offered no perfect solution. wake up, there is none. That's always done at the table.

The /shout idea is great if you want an FTE system (which isn't the only system). But i'm going to favor something that's classic because this is P99, and the "it's not classic" line has been uttered more times than i can remember. Is hybrid exp penalty fair? Not in the slightest. It's actually incredibly stupid when you consider the way EQ works and that the hybrid classes (pally/SK mostly) have a far harder time soloing than some pure wis/int classes (minus cleric). Does it mean more GM intervention if we scaled hybrid penalty back? No. But guess what, Aadill? It's classic. Dumping exp penalty and giving wizards early AAs would make more sense than introducing variance -- unless the GMs don't want a headache. They're doing this shit for free, so why should they? Let's make it classic and alleviate their headache.

But if you're expecting 100 people at a raid, classic or not, why the 4 days of sitting on your hand with your thumb up your ass? It's unnecessary. The /shout idea alleviates the headaches and allows for lower variance (significantly lower). It stays FTE and more active, attentive guilds who make less mistakes will always win out on more loot. Clusterfucks? The mob shouted, if you help in killing it then thanks for the extra DPS. If you loot it or train then enjoy your ban -- just like it is now.

The "did i win?" comment was directed toward Humwawa. One flamebait deserves another.