P99 Sky Agreement - why its bad for the server

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jokesteve [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As for 'showing up late to the party and wants things easier'

You quoted me, so you clearly read my post, but it doesn't seem like you actually read my post: I agree, 100%, Project 1999 is unfair! It's especially unfair to people who are "late to the party."

Want a Mana Orb, Guise of the Deceiver, Circlet of Shadow, or Holgresh Elder Beads, but you were late to the server/party? Too bad: your only option is to farm a ton of plat and buy one from someone who wasn't late to the party.

Now again, that's not a values judgement, it's a statement of fact. If you think it's unfair (because it is) that you have to pay a million plat for a Guise (or whatever they sell for), while other people just had to kill a mob once, then you have to convince the devs that everyone would be better off if they added Guises back into the game.

Sky is the same exact thing (a system that's unfair to the new people), except that convincing 14 guilds/alliances to try something new is a whole hell of lot easier than convincing Nilbog to put Guises back in the game. But it's certainly not going to be easy, and like I said if you want to succeed at it you have to understand why things are how they are, and then suggest something better.

P.S. And rotations are 100% classic, in the sense that there were servers (even in the classic era) that had rotations. They are also 100% unclassic, in the sense that there were servers that didn't have rotations. So really arguing for/against rotations being classic is a lost cause.

P.P.S.

Originally Posted by Jokesteve [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This very situation actually resulted in a guild getting raid banned

Unless I missed something, no guilds were banned: one group got a one week suspension.

[Baylan295]

Originally Posted by Jokesteve [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's the thing here, a raid guild that's capable of taking on sky shouldn't have to ask permission to raid in a zone that's uncontested in the first place. This very situation actually resulted in a guild getting raid banned recently when clue found out Untz Factory had gone up into sky during their slot when clue had zero intentions of going up that day. Things like this shouldn't be happening, and guild's shouldnt be able to sit on slots indefinitely from a player made agreement that the GM's decided to make law that alienates a large part of the population on this server from the various epics, and item quests sky has to offer anyone or any guild who is capable of going up there and taking on the challenge.

I mean yeah, I get it. Those of you who were in this player made agreement that the GM's made law are now able to capitalize on 100% and the greed of the few will probably outweigh the needs of many. But really its a selfish outlook when there is other guilds out there that should have a chance, just like any other target on this server.

1) The reasons for a rotation and why it’s inportant have already been stated in this thread. Do you disagree with those reasons?

2) I don’t think anyone was raid banned. I think some players got suspended, but all I’ve seen is RNF, so who knows.

3) If someone is not using their slot, talk to their leadership and I bet it won’t be an issue.

4) What is your reasonable alternative to the sky rotation?

5) edit: what steps have you and your guild taken to actually move toward getting a sky slot?

[Siberious]

Originally Posted by Jokesteve [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Epics are a big part of the complaint, but not the entire complaint. There are many more raid guilds, than there are slots on this list. Furthermore, not all raid guilds were consulted when this list was made.

Forced rotations, for the most part, are non-classic as well. As for 'showing up late to the party and wants things easier' really is laughable, not to turn this into rants and flames, but the two biggest supporters to post in here so far are members of guilds holding PM slots. Coincidence? not likely.

Tbh I don't care if my guild does Sky or not. What I noted was complaining about it with 0 alternative solution is pointless. You've posted multiple times with 0 proposed solution, just lots of "This is dumb and it shouldn't be this way".

You could, I know shocker, have your guild contact someone on the list and ask if you can alternate weeks. Just requires corpsing in your off weeks. Or you can alternate months. I came up with 2 super basic options that took me 30 seconds. Put in some effort. Also who are these many guilds and have you tried contacting GMs or guilds? Lots of complaining, not much constructive action being done by you.

[loramin]

Oh also OP, the image in your signature is a broken link. Plus, if you hosted it on imgur.com you could get it to actually show up in your sig.

[Jokesteve]

See my responses in red:

1) The reasons for a rotation and why it’s important*** have already been stated in this thread. Do you disagree with those reasons?

Your reasons are just a result of the zone and how its intended. Keying in sky always took time on live, as it should here. Rotation or no rotation, mobs being up or down is the end result of guilds actively trying their best to get from one spot to the next. Thats classic my man.

2) I don’t think anyone was raid banned. I think some players got suspended, but all I’ve seen is RNF, so who knows.

You might be right, but all the same, selfish reasons are still my point that this shouldn't be happening and this agreement shouldn't be forced on anyone not in the agreement.

3) If someone is not using their slot, talk to their leadership and I bet it won’t be an issue.

4) What is your reasonable alternative to the sky rotation?

FFA has always been what I have done on live, and here on p99. The only alternative I could give to your agreement and those of us who are not in it would be to exclude particular sky days from your agreement all together for those guilds involved within the agreement. OPEN sky days for the server who are not holding slots. So everyone else has a chance at sky that does not have an indefinite sky slot for the foreseeable future. I don't feel that a raid guild that's capable should have to ask for permission to joint raid or ask for permission to use someone else's slot and risk getting raid banned because of a player made agreement that was made law. Perhaps 1-2 days a week that are completely open to the rest of the server that the guilds within your agreement simply can not attend would be the best course of action to fulfill all parties desires. Those within the agreement, and those that are not.

5) edit: what steps have you and your guild taken to actually move toward getting a sky slot?

My guild raids like every other guild on this server, taking targets when we can when they spawn, contesting them with the rest of the server. I don't see why sky should be any different and I've already given my reasons why. So, no, we have never actively sought after a player made agreement for anything. We hit things when we have the people online and when the need arises and the mob is up.

[enjchanter]

Originally Posted by Baylan295 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I imagine if you approached any one of those 8 guilds’ leadership indicating you are working on Epic Piece X, and would like to join them for their slot in the foreseeable future while you work on it, you could come to a fair and equitable agreement about how that would be handled. None of those guilds is particularly interested in bottlenecking people’s epic pieces, and if you are contributing, I expect they would not mind letting you tag along and work on those pieces on a fair basis with their membership.

Personally have done this twice and they were more than happy to lend me a hand

[Baylan295]

Originally Posted by Jokesteve [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See my responses in red:

1) The reasons for a rotation and why it’s important*** have already been stated in this thread. Do you disagree with those reasons?

Your reasons are just a result of the zone and how its intended. Keying in sky always took time on live, as it should here. Rotation or no rotation, mobs being up or down is the end result of guilds actively trying their best to get from one spot to the next. Thats classic my man.

Your definition of classic is a player/behavior classic, not a mechanic classic. Good luck regulating that. It’s impossible. As loramin said, on some servers, rotations were classic.

2) I don’t think anyone was raid banned. I think some players got suspended, but all I’ve seen is RNF, so who knows.

You might be right, but all the same, selfish reasons are still my point that this shouldn't be happening and this agreement shouldn't be forced on anyone not in the agreement.

So you would propose allowing 1 (or 2 or however many) guilds to tear apart an Agreement made between a large portion of the raiding guilds on the server?

3) If someone is not using their slot, talk to their leadership and I bet it won’t be an issue.

4) What is your reasonable alternative to the sky rotation?

FFA has always been what I have done on live, and here on p99. The only alternative I could give to your agreement and those of us who are not in it would be to exclude particular sky days from your agreement all together for those guilds involved within the agreement. OPEN sky days for the server who are not holding slots. So everyone else has a chance at sky that does not have an indefinite sky slot for the foreseeable future. I don't feel that a raid guild that's capable should have to ask for permission to joint raid or ask for permission to use someone else's slot and risk getting raid banned because of a player made agreement that was made law. Perhaps 1-2 days a week that are completely open to the rest of the server that the guilds within your agreement simply can not attend would be the best course of action to fulfill all parties desires. Those within the agreement, and those that are not.

You don’t have to ask permission - you only have to ask permission if it’s one of the 11/14 slots that’s taken, unless you want to piss in someone’s wheaties and see what comes of it. It’s just as classic for you to have to be there at 8 am on a Wednesday to get the drops you want. The consequences of violating this agreement, even without GM intervention, would probably be pretty severe. Good luck finding groups, getting ports and rezzes, or any kind of help on a tagged toon if your guild chose to destroy the sky agreement. The sky agreement opens this content up to a much broader part of the server than would otherwise be available. If you aren’t in the sky rotation and want to get locked out of content, look at how AM/Tempest handle ToV. There aren’t many other guilds taking down mobs there with any regularity.

5) edit: what steps have you and your guild taken to actually move toward getting a sky slot?

My guild raids like every other guild on this server, taking targets when we can when they spawn, contesting them with the rest of the server. I don't see why sky should be any different and I've already given my reasons why. So, no, we have never actively sought after a player made agreement for anything. We hit things when we have the people online and when the need arises and the mob is up.

So you have taken no steps, and are complaining about something you don’t like. Good luck, man.

[Siberious]

Originally Posted by Jokesteve [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See my responses in red:

1) The reasons for a rotation and why it’s important*** have already been stated in this thread. Do you disagree with those reasons?

Your reasons are just a result of the zone and how its intended. Keying in sky always took time on live, as it should here. Rotation or no rotation, mobs being up or down is the end result of guilds actively trying their best to get from one spot to the next. Thats classic my man.

2) I don’t think anyone was raid banned. I think some players got suspended, but all I’ve seen is RNF, so who knows.

You might be right, but all the same, selfish reasons are still my point that this shouldn't be happening and this agreement shouldn't be forced on anyone not in the agreement.

3) If someone is not using their slot, talk to their leadership and I bet it won’t be an issue.

4) What is your reasonable alternative to the sky rotation?

FFA has always been what I have done on live, and here on p99. The only alternative I could give to your agreement and those of us who are not in it would be to exclude particular sky days from your agreement all together for those guilds involved within the agreement. OPEN sky days for the server who are not holding slots. So everyone else has a chance at sky that does not have an indefinite sky slot for the foreseeable future. I don't feel that a raid guild that's capable should have to ask for permission to joint raid or ask for permission to use someone else's slot and risk getting raid banned because of a player made agreement that was made law. Perhaps 1-2 days a week that are completely open to the rest of the server that the guilds within your agreement simply can not attend would be the best course of action to fulfill all parties desires. Those within the agreement, and those that are not.

5) edit: what steps have you and your guild taken to actually move toward getting a sky slot?

My guild raids like every other guild on this server, taking targets when we can when they spawn, contesting them with the rest of the server. I don't see why sky should be any different and I've already given my reasons why. So, no, we have never actively sought after a player made agreement for anything. We hit things when we have the people online and when the need arises and the mob is up.

Okay nice we're getting somewhere now. So you're thinking 2 days are complete FFA days and rotation can be for other days of the week. Or it's just FFA in general.

My concern here for pure FFA is this means small groups could clear 1-4 whenever they want, and would block islands 5-7 majority of the time, as they require a stronger force. Now you're blocking later islands more often.

Also if it's pure FFA you're removing clearing the islands twice a day in some cases, because people could roll in halfway through the day and clear the island. Less epics, less loot.

Lastly, how do you ever organize trying to key/corpse effectively? Now you have to go up more frequently to see what's up, requires more effort from everyone, lots more recorpsing.

All in all I see less loot, less epics getting done, tons of petitions to GMs, lots of blocking. So you want complete FFA because it favors your guild, and ruins Sky for 8+ other guilds?

Sounds worse for the server players & GM, I however don't mind a 5 day rotation with 2 FFA days. That's a compromise, but tbh I think you'll not enjoy numerous different groups going up at really off hours and clearing the early islands, thus the FFA days become crazy difficult to key or contest anything.

Also you'll have groups key through 7 and then use FFA days to pick off the 3-4 quick mobs they care about (Like Gorg --> KoS --> EoV --> HoV).

Sounds easier to get in contract with a guild on the slot and work things out.

[Jokesteve]

Solution: Exclude particular sky days from your agreement all together for those guilds involved within the agreement. OPEN sky days for the server who are not holding slots (for example, 1 weekday, 1 weekend day). So everyone else has a chance at sky that does not have an indefinite sky slot for the foreseeable future. I don't feel that a raid guild that's capable should have to ask for permission to joint raid or ask for permission to use someone else's slot and risk getting raid banned because of a player made agreement that was made law. Perhaps 1-2 days a week that are completely open to the rest of the server that the guilds within your agreement simply can not attend would be the best course of action to fulfill all parties desires. Those within the agreement, and those that are not.

I'd love to hear comments on this. Of course, this means some re-arranging of your list would have to be made, and some PM slots would be lost, as only AM slots are open. But if this agreement and all parties truly care about the needs of many and not just the needs of those who it benefits, then this would be the best solution I could offer.

[Jokesteve]

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay nice we're getting somewhere now. So you're thinking 2 days are complete FFA days and rotation can be for other days of the week. Or it's just FFA in general.

My concern here for pure FFA is this means small groups could clear 1-4 whenever they want, and would block islands 5-7 majority of the time, as they require a stronger force. Now you're blocking later islands more often.

Also if it's pure FFA you're removing clearing the islands twice a day in some cases, because people could roll in halfway through the day and clear the island. Less epics, less loot.

Lastly, how do you ever organize trying to key/corpse effectively? Now you have to go up more frequently to see what's up, requires more effort from everyone, lots more recorpsing.

All in all I see less loot, less epics getting done, tons of petitions to GMs, lots of blocking. So you want complete FFA because it favors your guild, and ruins Sky for 8+ other guilds?

Sounds worse for the server players & GM, I however don't mind a 5 day rotation with 2 FFA days. That's a compromise, but tbh I think you'll not enjoy numerous different groups going up at really off hours and clearing the early islands, thus the FFA days become crazy difficult to key or contest anything.

Also you'll have groups key through 7 and then use FFA days to pick off the 3-4 quick mobs they care about (Like Gorg --> KoS --> EoV --> HoV).

Sounds easier to get in contract with a guild on the slot and work things out.

Recorpsing is something you would already be doing with your current rotation, I fail to see how FFA days would effect this. Regardless, lets be honest with ourselves here, the only thing this rotation currently favors is the guilds that are on it. As for particular groups keying and hitting certain mobs, I'm sure that will happen, and I'm sure that already happens as is, hence the rotation put in place. On live, these kind of problems no longer exist, due to instancing. Even normal exp zones are now instanced when a certain player limit is reached. But what really brings me back to this server, and the immersion is the race, the contesting, the competition against the other guilds as you go for the boss.

Hence my distaste for these player agreements in general, on Tholuxe Paells we didn't have these rotations, nor did we on Firiona Vie.