most underpowered class in game?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The pulling meta for groups the past year or so is no longer pull singles but groups of 2-4 mobs. It’s interesting you mention wizards as they are very good pullers/cc for such groups, even better than rangers!

They pull / get target with eye, hit the pull with aoe snare at the choke point into the camp and get things rooted quickly. The snare and root on inc really helps tank establish aggro as they can use proxy aggro from root initially, and taunt off the snare to piggy back a big boost to their hate.

The servers are very twinked at this point and groups close to pure melee do fine into the 50s. Often the only caster is a bard or enc focusing on heals or slows or a necromancer acting as healer.

As I stated before, any class can pull. But your pull game would be even better with Harmony/Lull/FD. Just because people can pull in some zones without it, doesn't mean it is always a viable method to pull. This makes classes without Harmony/Lull/FD more limited in terms of where they can pull successfully. If you are in an area where you can pull that loosely, the area is already trivial, so a SK/Necro/Monk/Paladin is going to be just as good or better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Pulling a bunch of mobs in an easy zone is not a new pulling strategy. I was face pulling mobs in KC on my Shadowknight 5/6 years ago lol, no FD or snares needed. In any situation where your group can melt all incoming opposition, you don't really need a puller class, so anybody will do.

The reason why Rangers will never be great pullers is because when you DO need FD or Lull, they will not be able to do it if they are in a dungeon. So you will need to get somebody else to do the job. Having an actual puller class to begin allows your group more flexibility, because you can choose when to use their pulling power. If you are able to just face pull for faster kills, go for it! But when 2 people in your group leave, and you are no longer able to kill a 4 pull, then you can use FD/Lull to get safer pulls, instead of disbanding the group or waiting for a new player.

[Gustoo]

Rangers peak pulling happened in dreadlands groups in 2000, when there was 200 people in zone all the time and on live archery worked right and you could sniper mobs from a billion miles away and other melees probably didnt have a good bow.

[Jibartik]

Yeah that was amazing, in those days I was getting half a level after a full day of grinding at that terrible exp spot! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Heywood]

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't agree with that part. Rangers are actually very good in PvP. In group situations, they can participate in a melee train just fine, even if they aren't necessarily optimal for it. All that matters in group PvP is having more swinging dicks in your melee train than the opponent does. In solo 1v1 world PvP, rangers have great tools available to them.

A ranger might not beat a warrior in a 1:1 mathematical joust, but if you make use of your ranged options, it's perfectly winnable. Same goes for any other melee matchup. You have access to viable two-handed weapons, and if you fall behind in the joust, you can resort to shooting and quick-casting spells between clashes. Ensnare is super good against pets as it lasts like fifteen minutes and largely removes a pet from the equation.

Against casters, you've got solid melee output as well as strong FR/CR buffs, and you have the ability to shoot someone from outside conventional spellcasting range. Nobody can really run from you. You can't stop somebody from gating, but you can't be fought in the manner that casters normally fight melees because you have the option of just standing two hundred units of range away and shooting the dude over and over for 50-100 damage a pop. Nobody can stand up to that very long.

Being one of three classes with SoW is super nice on a PvP server as well. In theory, anyone can just buy SoW potions; but in reality, you get dispelled so much in PvP that most people just make do with jboots. Having that extra 10% movement speed is a huge advantage. Your own SoW might get dispelled, but just the fact that you always have the buff at the start of a fight means you always have a mobility advantage or at least parity (against druids and shamans) while almost everyone you fight will only have jboots speed. This matters way more for a melee class than for casters.

And while your offensive spells aren't exactly amazing, you do have quick-casting nukes and near-unresistable DoTs. They don't hurt a lot, but they do damage, so you're not completely incapable of doing anything to someone you can't get to in melee the way warriors, rogues, monks and paladins are. Among the melee classes, only rangers and shadowknights have the ability to apply pressure from range. When someone levitates off of a cliff just to counter your melee attacks, you can still put Drones of Doom on him, spam your fast fire nukes, and shoot a bow. It'll land you some kills from time to time where other melee classes had no such options.

For overall PvP, meaning not specifically group PvP or focused fully on 1v1 duels, ranger is a great class. It's good enough to partake in a melee train and it has perfectly fine matchups against all classes in random world 1v1s. When jousting against tankier melee classes, just get some distance and heal yourself from time to time, or get off bowshots in-between jousting clashes. Against casters, the ability to self-buff +40 FR/CR is a pretty big thing that allows you to focus more on MR, and no caster class can do much against any melee opponent with high enough resists.

And while ranger heals aren't particularly big, just the ability to heal yourself up after every fight means you're never in that awful situations where you're down to 60% HP and have to sit around for fifteen minutes to regenerate, hoping nobody finds you. Any class without healing spells has to deal with that when not in a group. Ask a PvP warrior how much it sucks to do anything alone just because it takes absolutely forever to regain HP after every fight.

Can't take this post serious when you mention ranger nukes. Rangers don't nuke in PvP. I take it you're talking about duels on blue/green. Which isn't really PvP, but can't hold that against ya.

Rangers still the correct answer as the most UP class.

[Selene]

I was going to move past this thread until I checked back in to see my poor mage being slandered relentlessly!

I get a lot of the points that are being made about mages but this whole debate hinges on what's weighted as being more important. We'll have to agree to disagree, but I think naming mages as the most underpowered class of the game is very incorrect!

Solo-wise, they are very capable. Sure, camps with 3+ mobs are probably off limits unless they're weak, but a mage can take 2 mobs with an earth pet pretty consistently. They can do dungeons solo in some circumstances (but then again, which class besides enchanter can reliably do all the dungeons in the game solo?) Unlike a wizard, a mage can actually do dungeons. And don't get me started about farming.

Grouping wise, the argument for necro over mage is completely predicated on the composition of the group. In the vast majority of grouping experiences, there is a cleric and there is an enchanter or bard, or at least someone who can root (even if it;s just the cleric). and in 95% of the cases, that's all you need - the extra utility of a necro, like the argument about druid/rangers' abilities being overshadowed by other classes that can do the same in the group, is usually nullified. I'd take a mage's DPS over the situational utility of a necro (if it is needed in the first place) any day.

A mage's DPS in a group is not to be trifled with. Imo only a rogue can compare --- their pets hit harder on an average hit than a rogue, a 33 point damage shield adds up a lot, plus mana free nukes from the chardok staff (333 dmg) or velks boots (600 damage) - and that's not even considering the 1k nuke we can drop to help burn down a mob. Given that the vast majority of groups is about grinding through mobs mindlessly, a mage is head and shoulders preferable to a necro in most groups. And if it isn't one of those xp grinding groups - but instead a loot camp involving a tough named - well, in most cases the group is pre-configured with a cleric and a CC (usually enchanter). Given the elite DPS class of a mage, they belong there over a necro, too.

Mage roles in raids are lame, but it is a critical one. Given how boring raids are with autoattack and heals being the crux of it, who cares if it is lame? simply being critical with a spell or two is enough for me, personally

I think people get too hung about mages being weaker than the other casters, especially with no CC (and I grant that they are - certainly weaker than enchanter, necro, shaman, and in some cases even druid) - but they are a specialized class that specializes in dealing sustained DPS in a manner only rivaled by a well geared rogue or monk.

as for utility, you can't discount malo just because shamans get it too - only 2 classes get this line of spells, and it is so useful for any other spellcaster in the group who needs resists lowered when there is no shaman (which happens frequently enough)

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by Selene [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was going to move past this thread until I checked back in to see my poor mage being slandered relentlessly!

I get a lot of the points that are being made about mages but this whole debate hinges on what's weighted as being more important. We'll have to agree to disagree, but I think naming mages as the most underpowered class of the game is very incorrect!

Solo-wise, they are very capable. Sure, camps with 3+ mobs are probably off limits unless they're weak, but a mage can take 2 mobs with an earth pet pretty consistently. They can do dungeons solo in some circumstances (but then again, which class besides enchanter can reliably do all the dungeons in the game solo?) Unlike a wizard, a mage can actually do dungeons. And don't get me started about farming.

Grouping wise, the argument for necro over mage is completely predicated on the composition of the group. In the vast majority of grouping experiences, there is a cleric and there is an enchanter or bard, or at least someone who can root (even if it;s just the cleric). and in 95% of the cases, that's all you need - the extra utility of a necro, like the argument about druid/rangers' abilities being overshadowed by other classes that can do the same in the group, is usually nullified. I'd take a mage's DPS over the situational utility of a necro (if it is needed in the first place) any day.

A mage's DPS in a group is not to be trifled with. Imo only a rogue can compare --- their pets hit harder on an average hit than a rogue, a 33 point damage shield adds up a lot, plus mana free nukes from the chardok staff (333 dmg) or velks boots (600 damage) - and that's not even considering the 1k nuke we can drop to help burn down a mob. Given that the vast majority of groups is about grinding through mobs mindlessly, a mage is head and shoulders preferable to a necro in most groups. And if it isn't one of those xp grinding groups - but instead a loot camp involving a tough named - well, in most cases the group is pre-configured with a cleric and a CC (usually enchanter). Given the elite DPS class of a mage, they belong there over a necro, too.

Mage roles in raids are lame, but it is a critical one. Given how boring raids are with autoattack and heals being the crux of it, who cares if it is lame? simply being critical with a spell or two is enough for me, personally

I think people get too hung about mages being weaker than the other casters, especially with no CC (and I grant that they are - certainly weaker than enchanter, necro, shaman, and in some cases even druid) - but they are a specialized class that specializes in dealing sustained DPS in a manner only rivaled by a well geared rogue or monk.

as for utility, you can't discount malo just because shamans get it too - only 2 classes get this line of spells, and it is so useful for any other spellcaster in the group who needs resists lowered when there is no shaman (which happens frequently enough)

Agree with all of this. I'm not even a mage and have no particular love for the class. There's some people with seriously clouded judgment and/or mage hate around here. Mage is a super good group class. Decent solo'er and fills an important (maybe boring) role in raids. Underpowered is crazy talk.

[Balimon]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When figuring out generally the most underpowered class, we have to look beyond one-off abilities that are extremely useful in a handful of situations. If that was the criteria, then no class would be underpowered. Every class in the game has at least one situation where they are amazing. In the general context of "most underpowered", you need to look at the game as a whole to determine which classes struggle in general more than others due to their specific toolkit.

In general, Mages are used as CoTH bots as you describe. But it is not because CoTH is so good that it trumps a Mage's other abilities. It is because CoTH is one of the only good abilities they have. If Mages had other great abilities, you would see Mages being used in more situations. Unfortunately a big chunk of a Mage's toolkit is their pets, which cannot be used in many situations due to poor pathing. Another big chunk of a Mage's toolkit is summoned items. Most of those items are not useful on a server where the population knows everything, and good gear is easily accessible. Their third chunk of abilities are DDs, which are inferior to a Wizards. And their Mala is inferior to a Shamans. This is why on P99 Mages struggle. Most of their kit is either not used, or inferior to other classes. They also don't have much in the ways of CC, which further lowers their utility.

You're forgetting Mod rods, they are more mana efficient than twitches. You need at least a couple of mages at raids to be mana batteries and to do train aways. Also mage DS is superior to druids because of the fire resist component.

[Tunabros]

no one likes playing mages

sorry you are a coth bot

hope this helps

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by Tunabros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no one likes playing mages

sorry you are a coth bot

hope this helps

Jokes on you, I don't even have coth on my mage and still(occasionally) get asked to bring my mage to a raid instead of my enchanter.