most underpowered class in game?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We’re talking your standard 50s xp group rogue with epic and a decent 1hander to pair it with. Even 55+ with double backstab.

Mage pets alone will outdamage a lot of melee classes if you take the time to get a max summon and buff it appropriately. Nukes so push the mage over the top and we’re talking a lazily tossed 1-2 nukes per fight. This still ignores the mage dmg shield which isn’t insignificant.

Remember we’re talking groups here. Mages get the shaft in the raid scene.

I honestly don't think that matters too much. All classes can fill roles just fine in a 50's XP group. You don't see groups heavily screening out other classes in favor of Mages for a slight edge in DPS. It's the same reason why groups don't screen for gear. You really don't need to go that crazy on DPS in a leveling group most of the time.

As I have stated before, Mages can level just fine. I just don't think that makes up for how much they fall off at 60 compared to other classes.

[Troxx]

We will have to agree to disagree. You won’t be changing my mind and I doubt I can change yours [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We will have to agree to disagree. You won’t be changing my mind and I doubt I can change yours [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed!

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So yeah no … with the exception of raids mages are nowhere near the most underpowered class … not by a long shot. For levels 1-60 count they are incredibly powerful … both in groups and for solo potential.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's my synopsis of this thread:

DeathsSilkyMist is notorious for instigating long, drawn out threads typically from a subjective claim that he will say was solved by "math". He will gladly go 500+ pages in a thread to attempt to "win" to get his point across, despite the overwhelming majority disagreeing with him. His presentation is what annoys most people, due to the arrogant connotation that usually comes along with it, even if doesn't specifically mean to do so(or he could be the most well disguised troll on these forums).

His claim to mages being the most underpowered class is basically the reason we all have many alts. There's a better raiding class, there's a better grouping class, there are better solo classes. But when you look at the full scope of the game, a mage is quite good, despite their lack of cc/utility/etc. They can blow through content that can take "utility" classes much longer to do, because of their superior pets, nukes, DS, etc. Sure, you see more rogues in the raid scene, but that doesn't make them a more powerful class. A Mage overall simply has more areas where they can exert their power. And to me that's what being overpowered/underpowered is all about. How much power does your toolkit give you in every area of the game?

There's no right answer to this thread, it's all subjective, I think most would generally agree it's not a mage though. I think Loraen's class selection guide is a pretty accurate description of average class rating, since he actually considers all aspects of the game, and mage actually falls in the top 5, despite them been supposedly useless at 60 and not caring about what the class was intended for. That's the thing about being overpowered/underpowered. It wasn't necessarily an intention, but it happened anyway.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes Crede, we all know that attacking people's character with your imaginary fantasies isn't an argument. Reposting nonsense isn't convincing anyone[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are also incorrect that it is subjective. There is an objective answer. There simply isn't any individual or group of individuals willing to compile the data necessary to prove which one is most underpowered without a doubt. All computer applications are based on math. Statistically there is a best and worst class in every game ever created.

If you have been playing the game for years, you will see patterns of class usage throughout the leveling process, and at level 60. Mages tend to peter out in the later levels due to how much they fall off. I can't think of any other class that does this, and this is why Mages end up as CoTH Bots. To me, that pattern of behavior is pretty good data to show that Mages are underpowered. You can accurately say that Rogues suck at leveling, but at the end of the day more people play them than Mages.

[Troxx]

I can’t think of a single class that doesn’t have an area where it shines when you factor in the sum total of the experience in playing EverQuest. Low level… high level … and everything in between in the world of Norrath.

So no, objectively there is no best or worst class globally.

If you focus on specific areas of this game and at certain tiers of gameplay, yeah some of them are undeniably horrible (like druid on high end velious raids … where you’re a potg buff bot and a patch healer who is the worst at healing).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can’t think of a single class that doesn’t have an area where it shines when you factor in the sum total of the experience in playing EverQuest. Low level… high level … and everything in between in the world of Norrath.

So no, objectively there is no best or worst class globally.

If you focus on specific areas of this game and at certain tiers of gameplay, yeah some of them are undeniably horrible (like druid on high end velious raids … where you’re a potg buff bot and a patch healer who is the worst at healing).

Yes, objectively there is a best and worst class. This is true in all games, because all games are based on math. The differences may be minor, but that doesn't change the fact that it is true. Again, there simply isn't anyone willing to compile the data to find it.

I agree that every class has strengths and weaknesses. But it's pretty unfortunate that Mages fall off quite a bit at the end game, which plenty of people like to play in.

I agree that Druids and Wizards also fall off quite a bit at 60, but because they have CC (and charm with Druids), they can still end up doing more higher level content than Mages.

Mages also don't have a monopoly on good DPS in groups, so they aren't at the front of the line when people are checking for which classes to select when building a group. I haven't really seen any groups decline a Rogue for a Mage.

[loramin]

For anyone who is curious about classic, I did a ton of searching for some sort of survey, or discussion of what was the best class ... and came up with nothing. People in classic really seemed to believe "every class has a purpose" more than "X class is better than Y".

But I did find this discussion of which class to pick that I found interesting: https://web.archive.org/web/20020124...bestclass.html

For instance, Enchanters:

Enchanters are the masters of illusion and confusion spells. They are not a great solo class but are highly sought after in a group. They are also one of the more interesting classes in the game as they can do so many unique things. Charm is also a useful(albeit dangerous) tool. Weaknesses are their low damage DD spells, the fact that their spells are resisted more than other classes, and the fact that they are most effective in a group.

So different from P99!

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanter hands down. Their toolkit makes them amazing at Soloing, Grouping, and Raiding.

Enchanters are a bit hit and miss raiding imo. Great for several encounters e.g. Tunare, but go into most of ToV or VP or Sleepers golems and suddenly you're best off if 3/4ths of the enchanter's you had at Tunare swap to a different class. I bet our enchanters have a significantly higher than average rate of playing guild bots.

When the encounter doesn't allow for any mez/lull/charm/stun/root I feel a kinship with those magicians who can't summon a pet or land a nuke, too. The role reduction really changes the game even though the raid still needs a few of you.

I agree about soloing and grouping, though. Great class for either.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters are a bit hit and miss raiding imo. Great for several encounters e.g. Tunare, but go into most of ToV or VP or Sleepers golems and suddenly you're best off if 3/4ths of the enchanter's you had at Tunare swap to a different class. I bet our enchanters have a significantly higher than average rate of playing guild bots.

When the encounter doesn't allow for any mez/lull/charm/stun/root I feel a kinship with those magicians who can't summon a pet or land a nuke, too. The role reduction really changes the game even though the raid still needs a few of you.

I agree about soloing and grouping, though. Great class for either.

True, they aren't as useful in certain raid situations.

But I am not sure if any other class is so good in all three categories overall as an Enchanter. There are certainly situations in which other classes are better than Enchanters in a raid, especially when you can't Charm and you can't CC.

Shamans could come close, but they require a lot more money to get going, and they have the same issue as Enchanters, where quite a few Raid situations do not require more than a few Shamans.

When not talking about Shamans or Enchanters, usually the other classes start to drag on the solo/group categories.