Someone Translate this wall of text from Omni

[Phenyo]

Originally Posted by Littul Jonn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Small observation then im out - You do know nobody CotH ducks right?

Cloki's original point is valid in that the burden of proof needed for "cheating" is insane. However if you look at the targets in ToV, or really anywhere now, nobody is bending rules or training on purpose. The main reasons others are getting mobs and not your guild is the bigger guildss have more people who can contest longer.

Advice, not that anyone wants to hear it, level 2 coth mages to 55 and 3 clerics to 40 (for CH), contest 2 hours of whatever mob you'd like, and see how ya do.

Can u not post sensible sound advice its not appropriate thanks

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So look it's not about whether I can "compete", or whether my current guild can "compete": I'm questioning the competition itself. It's unclassic and it artificially limits server content to a smaller subset of players. Rotations make that content available to more people: they let more people experience classic EverQuest. That's what this server is about.

Now this is the main issue I take with the rotation system. Not that I think it's an inherently bad or awful goal, but i don't think it fits with EQ. We could argue this logic with every desirable camp in the game. Why should Tommy Tentwinks get to farm plat all day long when poor Jimmy the elf can't even buy his spells? Why should anyone be allowed to farm MQ pieces for plat when someone just wants the classic experience of getting their epic? Do I think it would be nice for Jimmy to get a chance to farm some plat? Sure do, but does that mean I want the GMs coming along and kicking people out of camps so he can do it? Absolutely not.

We can't ONLY apply this philosophy to the best mobs in the game, that kind of seems silly to me. Most of the active players at any given moment are not affected by what's going on in ToV. Honestly, people who are just dying want to get into ToV but just can't simply because of the raid scene are probably a very small minority. The more casual players are just concerned about maxing out int/wis or getting some decent weapons to do acceptable DPS etc etc. They aren't stressing out about AM, AG and Core are getting too many dragons, they're stressing out cuz they can never get the sisters camp in lfay or because they can't log in after work and get into a group without waiting on a list.

The "competition" exists at every level in EQ, from lvl 10 solo camps to lvl 60 raid zones. With raid mobs you actually have a better shot against nolifers than you do with almost all desirable camps, because you can go for that FTE and get the kill if you can muster a force to do it. Instead of just waiting in line behind some unemployed bastard who sits on EQ for 19 hours a day.

The fact is that if a rotation is implemented in ToV it has absolutely nothing to do with sharing or giving players a chance to experience classic EQ. It's just because the staff is sick of the petitionquesting. Something that could be drastically reduced if actual punishments were handed out to leaders of guilds that can't seem to assemble a force that follows the rules or abides by the agreements they enter.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by Heebs13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah permarooting the bosses causes problems with push to interrupt and such. Making them summon at 100% is still classic and solves the stupid trains to entrance without causing the push problem.

Well push to interrupt isn't classic either right? And wasn't it implied that it will get nerfed with the second half of the Chardok 2.0 patch also?

And on the topic of things that will never happen with the recharge system, it would be neat if charges were soulbound. So once you have clicked a mallet, reaper, soufire, idol that's the only time your character will ever be able to use it in his life. Preserves the "o shit button" nature of the items and makes recharging pointless. Just a random daydream there, obviously not a serious suggestion of something that will ever happen.

[aaezil]

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now this is the main issue I take with the rotation system. Not that I think it's an inherently bad or awful goal, but i don't think it fits with EQ. We could argue this logic with every desirable camp in the game. Why should Tommy Tentwinks get to farm plat all day long when poor Jimmy the elf can't even buy his spells? Why should anyone be allowed to farm MQ pieces for plat when someone just wants the classic experience of getting their epic? Do I think it would be nice for Jimmy to get a chance to farm some plat? Sure do, but does that mean I want the GMs coming along and kicking people out of camps so he can do it? Absolutely not.

We can't ONLY apply this philosophy to the best mobs in the game, that kind of seems silly to me. Most of the active players at any given moment are not affected by what's going on in ToV. Honestly, people who are just dying want to get into ToV but just can't simply because of the raid scene are probably a very small minority. The more casual players are just concerned about maxing out int/wis or getting some decent weapons to do acceptable DPS etc etc. They aren't stressing out about AM, AG and Core are getting too many dragons, they're stressing out cuz they can never get the sisters camp in lfay or because they can't log in after work and get into a group without waiting on a list.

The "competition" exists at every level in EQ, from lvl 10 solo camps to lvl 60 raid zones. With raid mobs you actually have a better shot against nolifers than you do with almost all desirable camps, because you can go for that FTE and get the kill if you can muster a force to do it. Instead of just waiting in line behind some unemployed bastard who sits on EQ for 19 hours a day.

The fact is that if a rotation is implemented in ToV it has absolutely nothing to do with sharing or giving players a chance to experience classic EQ. It's just because the staff is sick of the petitionquesting. Something that could be drastically reduced if actual punishments were handed out to leaders of guilds that can't seem to assemble a force that follows the rules or abides by the agreements they enter.

sounds a lot like AM should have been disbanded by staff a long long time ago then!

[smitho1984]

Oh if only we could cap Guild numbers and restrict Co-raids to Tunare/AoW....

[destrozi]

BiS loot in ToV being limited to the few "uber" guilds is completely classic. The current rules replicate the nature of classic everquest -- people who are willing to put in the time and effort PLUS join a raid guild get access to the best loot in the game.

If you want to experience the endgame, you should join a guild that has the infrastructure to contest the endgame. This was no different back in 1999.

I would also argue that acquiring raid loot these days is much easier than it was back 20 years ago. AG has a very lenient raid attendance policy for bidding DKP, plus I think AM has a 10% raid attendance policy for bidding? These thresholds are within reach of even a casual player. More players have access to more loot in the current iteration of P99.

However, the thesis of this thread seems to be "More _guilds_ should have access to more loot." This is so completely non classic, uber guilds have always dominated the raid scene.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Mead [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can try to twist it any way you want but he's right. You guys want free pixels, and hopefully are never going to get them. Be happy with the mom and pop guild targets you can acquire or put in more work.

Nice re-direct.

This is the mantra of the hardcore: "You are hopefully never going to get free pixels. Nevermind the fact that about 80% of our raid force pretty much gets free pixels. Because, uh, time and effort."

Again, what work is 80% of the raid force doing besides getting to a zone and pushing buttons when told? Please explain how they are "putting in the work to get loot"? Oh, that's right... you can't, as many times as you would love to dismiss the hypocrisy pointed out here.

I will concede knowing how the raid encounter works and communicating what needs to be done and when, tracking, FTE/pulling, and camping raid ez-mode trinkets can all be considered work. I gaurantee not everyone in the raid is putting in that work. Yet every warm body there earns DKP to bid on loot that they essentially got for showing up and pressing some buttons.

But keep kidding yourself.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by destrozi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

BiS loot in ToV being limited to the few "uber" guilds is completely classic. The current rules replicate the nature of classic everquest -- people who are willing to put in the time and effort PLUS join a raid guild get access to the best loot in the game.

If you want to experience the endgame, you should join a guild that has the infrastructure to contest the endgame. This was no different back in 1999.

I would also argue that acquiring raid loot these days is much easier than it was back 20 years ago. AG has a very lenient raid attendance policy for bidding DKP, plus I think AM has a 10% raid attendance policy for bidding? These thresholds are within reach of even a casual player. More players have access to more loot in the current iteration of P99.

However, the thesis of this thread seems to be "More _guilds_ should have access to more loot." This is so completely non classic, uber guilds have always dominated the raid scene.

Part of "classic" is that uber guilds eventually moved on from what we consider to be classic content, freeing it up for other guilds, which is not the case here and therefore ironically not classic. They did not compete for classic content in perpetuity.

[destrozi]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Part of "classic" is that uber guilds eventually moved on from what we consider to be classic content, freeing it up for other guilds, which is not the case here and therefore ironically not classic. They did not compete for classic content in perpetuity.

True, but irrelevant.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We could argue this logic with every desirable camp in the game. Why should Tommy Tentwinks get to farm plat all day long when poor Jimmy the elf can't even buy his spells?

I see this as you basically admitting you've lost the argument, that rotations are better for the server, and the only way you can win it back is to change the argument to somehow be about Tommy Tentwinks. Please don't: we're talking about raid encounters only here, and if you can't see a meaningful difference between raid encounters and the rest of the game then I think you're being deliberately obtuse. In other words:

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We can't ONLY apply this philosophy to the best mobs in the game, that kind of seems silly to me.

Yes, we absolutely can: the server has a long history of different rules/philosophy for raiders! Like, pretty much the entire history of the server there's been different raid rules (certainly as long as I've been here). For that entire time you've never cared that raids are different from normal play, and now all of the sudden you do?

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They aren't stressing out about AM, AG and Core are getting too many dragons, they're stressing out cuz they can never get the sisters camp in lfay or because they can't log in after work and get into a group without waiting on a list.

Now you're ignoring what I've said. I made it very clear that there are three groups of players on this server. Not two (hard-working top-end guilds and lazy everyone else), but three (people who can raid dragons and play P99's non-EQ artificial raid game well, people who can raid dragons and don't or won't, and people who can't raid dragons). Stop trying to make this about people who can't raid dragons.

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The "competition" exists at every level in EQ, from lvl 10 solo camps to lvl 60 raid zones.

Yeah, we have a brutal PvP competition for scout right? And when someone wants someone else's camp, they duke it out to see who competes better for the camp?

No? We have a server with rules designed to share content between players [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact is that if a rotation is implemented in ToV it has absolutely nothing to do with sharing or giving players a chance to experience classic EQ.

Says you, with no basis whatsoever. Somehow I think all the players that would get to see dragons for the first time on this server would disagree.