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Troxx Troxx is online now
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: The sands of DSMís vagina
Posts: 3,984

Page 273 I provide some summaries:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
More or less this.

All the good information and discussion can be found in the first few pages of this thread. It really boiled down to whether or not a group wanted redundant utility or whether they wanted to just kill things faster. DSM tried to make the case that shamans were perfectly good dps. His napkin math showed they were just as good or close but over time were actually better or equal while also bringing utility thusly implying shamans are the clear cut 4th spot winner.

The great dps “debate”:

-We were presented logs of him soloing a level 40 Jin shaman frog (literally the weakest mob in the zone). This was not relevant to the topic.
-then we got some napkin math about med rates, nukes per hour … you name it …
-We were later gifted yet another solo rot/dot fight of him and his pet on a zone in golem. Again … not relevant to the discussion.
-we watched him misinterpret parses given to him. Claiming I was nuking 4-8 times (lol) for 825 per pop per fight assuming that all “hits” from my mage were nukes and not remembering my pet nukes.
-we watched him ignore breakout fights showing a LOW of high 70s dps and a HIGH of over 175dps with the average floating 100-120 which was right where I said my non-epic, non-focus, no clicky boots mage would be in a fast moving group.
-we later saw Ally’s 58 mage put up similar numbers (granted we don’t know what kind of group she was in but I digress…)

Side tangents we saw:

-a couple of dozen pages of him talking about how enchanters can’t really solo effectively until level 32, going so far as to say his no regen mildly twinked warrior at 27ish could do more dps than an unhasted level 17-18 charm pet as evidence that enchanters don’t solo well after they get charm (lol). We were given single fights for each. We pointed out that the charm pet was 10ish levels lower than his warrior, unhasted, and ignored the fact that done properly an enchanter can chain solo with no down time while the warrior will eventually have to stop. It’s a shame he felt the need to stack odds so aggressively to try and prove something we all know is BS. Ironically this side tangent dozens of pages in length was not even relevant.
-several more dozen pages involving this theoretical group having a pocket cleric to log in as needed to rationalize having the shaman in the group (lol wtf?)

The focus of discussion has flipped so often it’s hard to keep track. Goalposts are constantly moving and any time hard reality slaps an autist in the face there is shameless redirection or attempts to flat out ignore data not consistent with an autist’s agenda. In 23 years of playing this game and haunting forums I have NEVER seen anything as hilariously obtuse as this thread.

This really is simple. Any 4 man best caster group will have at a minimum a cleric and an enchanter. Charm is so overpowered that the obvious 3rd choice is another enchanter. This leaves one spot left with 4 possible choices.

A). Choice A is a 4th enchanter. Most dps. Some added risk. No additional anything but yes the most dps. As a cleric in this group I might go a little nutty having 3 potential targets to blast heal and 3 pets that will also eventually need a heal but if played well the enchanters should have any pet break on lockdown immediately.

B). Choice B is a mage who brings additional value of malo debuffs for pets, CoTH, pet haste masks, DS, a beefy pet to stand in the event charms break or simply to do great dps and nuke dps potential which is always welcome and never wasted because it isn’t a dot. As has been shown already, a good mage is a respectable 100-120 dps at the high end (more with pet focus, epic, and/or Velk boots). That is strong dps and honestly not far behind a high end quadding, hasted pet. It’s as strong or close to as strong as a standard “safe” xp group pet hasted or quadding. Strong dps, no added risk, additional perks added (malo likely the best of them)

C). Choice C is a necromancer who brings additional value of FD, backup rez, undead charm potential, additional pet which isn’t bad for the same reasons mage pet isn’t bad, ok-ish nukes and personal dps (they aren’t efficient but lich is some awesome mana regen). On top of that they bring some redundancy in that they have a good Cc tool kit and can heal pretty well (but the group doesn’t need it). On the whole a decent add for dps alone with summon pet and personal nukes but with utility that ISNT redundant and adds palpable value.

D). Choice D is a shaman. Shamans add value with malo. They have the worst pet option with low dps but it can take a few hits. They can nuke to add some dps but not efficient, lower impact hits and longer cast times. Mediocre dps when trying hard. They do have an expansive toolkit but this is where the redundancy kicks in. You won’t need the heals, slows, roots. Dots are worthless as stuff will die to fast. They do bring a measure of increased safety but with a cleric and TWO enchanters … how much safer can you get?? So yeah. Poor to mediocre dps. Maybe good in short burst of chain nuking but that still falls behind B or C. Tons of utility that unfortunately … is not unique to what the group already has other than malo.

I will close by quoting my very first post in this thread below. I still stand by it.
Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Great summary, and an accurate presentation of options available to anybody in this situation. Thanks for not muddying up the thread trying to suggest leveling a 5th alt either, since this thread is specifically about 4s.

I'd personally choose Cleric/Enchanter/Mage/Necro, which covers everything. It might not have the same amount of dps as multiple enc's, but I like that it gives you basically everything, while still being able to obliterate 99.9% of content. To me repeating classes is just boring.
Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Shamans are a fan-fucking-tastic class. By heads and shoulders one of the strongest. They are god-mode. But … the scope of this thread was very specific. Given the constraints of the question … they are not the best choice unless your group mates are incompetent and you expect there to be oh shit moments a lot that would threaten a wipe. If we are making that assumption and that players are inattentive and suck, however, we shouldn’t have 2 enchanters in the group to start with.

Best “safety” group?

Cleric ench mage necro would be my vote. You’ve got 3 classes with CC. 3 tanks (2 summon and a charm). 2 rezzers. 3 classes that can give mana to the cleric (clarity, mod rods and twitches), 2 classes that can rez, 2 classes that can heal, both malo and tash, and slows. And you have plenty of dps to do anything. Shaman still doesn’t fit the bill as the most ideal.

But assuming players don’t suck it’s one of the following;

Page 278 … anticipation is building …

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I’ll admit it. I told DSM about 200 pages ago I would take him seriously when he actually went out and gathered him some actual data with him in an actual group. Since then I have probably contributed a healthy 80:20 mix of trolling his eclectic ramble of nonsense vs actual active engagement in the false hope he will have an epiphany.

It has been enjoyable.

We celebrated page 100 with many good times and laughter

We rolled our eyes and got slightly nauseated with page 200

Maybe a party at 300?

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist View Post
There is no fail message for FD.

Last edited by Troxx; Today at 10:50 PM..
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