Proposed new server ruleset: PvE+ [long effortpost]

[Lakeland]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I assure you that my panties are not bunched up. I'd simply like to hear more intelligent criticism than "LOL NOT CLASSIC" or "MAKE UR OWN SERVER BRO".

There is no need for people to feel so rustled by hypothetical discussion of a server ruleset.

Well when someone says

"1) Remain as Classic as possible, with a focus on the spirit rather than the letter of Classic"

As the first point to the thread it's probably expected people will point out if the ideas are neither "classic" nor the "spirit of" isn't it? If you have ideas on how to make basketball more fun and in essence change it to football it's no longer what it was, it might be great or even better but it's not what it start off being. Not one thing about what he said is "Classic as possible".

Also, read the thread over and tell me who has the most "rustled" post in the thread...

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Lakeland [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I read it, every long winded word, but tell me what out of these things you listed are "classic eq"? Traveling merchant is simply something you want, not one thing about it says "classic eq" and honestly you want everything else "harder" but you want some merchant randomly wandering around to make things easier? Very odd.

Why penalize players who want to be outside? So if I can't find a group I get 75% experience loss killing stuff? Why? What makes this "classic eq"?

Gear getting destroyed by raid mobs? When was this in the "spirit" of "classic eq"? No, see we read it, we just realize you have a theory of what you want in a game and want it added to an existing game. You don't want "classic" you want your version and again by all means that's cool but don't act like it's anything close to "class eq" because it just is not.

The spirit of Classic EQ is, in my view, when overcoming the environment of the game itself is the biggest challenge the player faces, as opposed to the state of the server now, where the challenge is only in killing mobs before other players do. If you want to preserve classic mechanics and content, the only way to make the world/environment more difficult to overcome is to tweak it in the ways I suggested.

I want to penalize you for XPing outside because XPing outside is trivially easy. This ruleset is specifically designed to be hard. It's designed to heavily encourage grouping in dungeons for advancement, and rewards XPing in more difficult zones. These changes are obviously "not classic" in themselves. But you know what is classic? Grouping in dungeons and relying on other players just to stay alive, much less advance your character.

Gear destroyed by raid mobs is basically taking the PvP item loot rules from Rallos Zek and applying them to raid mobs. It's fairly hardcore, sure. But that's the point. Any guild that could raid successfully on the PvE+ server would be legit as fuck and everyone would know it.

[Whirled]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hn9xAaKUbw
Some people hold pixels very sacred.^
Hope this helps.

[Turdler]

I like the effort put into your proposal; but FRAT!

[Lakeland]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The spirit of Classic EQ is, in my view, when overcoming the environment of the game itself is the biggest challenge the player faces, as opposed to the state of the server now, where the challenge is only in killing mobs before other players do. If you want to preserve classic mechanics and content, the only way to make the world/environment more difficult to overcome is to tweak it in the ways I suggested.

I want to penalize you for XPing outside because XPing outside is trivially easy. This ruleset is specifically designed to be hard. It's designed to heavily encourage grouping in dungeons for advancement, and rewards XPing in more difficult zones. These changes are obviously "not classic" in themselves. But you know what is classic? Grouping in dungeons and relying on other players just to stay alive, much less advance your character.

Gear destroyed by raid mobs is basically taking the PvP item loot rules from Rallos Zek and applying them to raid mobs. It's fairly hardcore, sure. But that's the point. Any guild that could raid successfully on the PvE+ server would be legit as fuck and everyone would know it.

The problem comes in the fact that grouping, even back in the day, wasn't always possible and it sure won't always be possible on an emulated server with MUCH less population. So what are people to do when they aren't able to group? What will a new player like myself do when no one groups because they all have established guildmates/friends and the new player is running around with nothing? How long will new players play when they can't solo to level and sit forever waiting for a group because soloing has become so useless exp wise its not worth doing, especially since even with SoW the second you get an add your dead because you now can't run away from anything?

You want things that sound good, as I said it could even be better then it is now I'm not denying that, but it's not logically functional. You'd be running a completely hardcore server without any casual players, the irony is them players already only group/raid so what's the real change for them? If a server like you want existed how is any player that just entering going to accomplish anything?

I think some people who have played for a long time on 1999 forget what it's like to be a complete noob because your plan basically destroys any new players coming up. Just the food concept in general is enough to make people so frustrated they quit. If life happens and I have to log away from a city what do I do when I log back on? Run to a city wasting huge amounts of time just to buy food just to run all the way back to where I was? How is this helping advance the game or make it fun? Limiting my ability to play alts? How is that fun or useful? I just don't understand it from the concept of an old EQ player but new 1999 player.

Again I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I'm just saying it's absolutely not in the spirit of the classic game. I miss grouping in games to level (that's why I'm back here) but I don't think you can force that, you would just run people off the game. I mained a cleric back in EQ from launch, soloing wasn't really a thing for me but that was ok because I'd find groups easy enough and with a good reputation among the player base and guildmates I did just fine. With so few players here, I'm absolutely worried about trying to level my cleric as it is because no one looks for groups, everyone is twinked out and soloing or being powerleveled. If we were under your rules what would a new player as a cleric do? Don't say "Find a group" because that's the obvious answer but it just doesn't work that way as I said earlier.

EQ was hard, really hard at times, but it wasn't SO much so you wouldn't be able to do something while lfg. Your plan basically makes you sit bored if your lfg, well that's when your not running to a merchant every log in to get food and water.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Izmael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Obviously quite a bit of thinking went into OP's post - I'd undersign about 95% of it.

Not sure what to think of the traveling merchant (why?) and charm resistance (if we nerf charm, we have to nerf a bunch of other stuff as well - necros soloing, druids/wizards quadding, bards swarming (even 10 is a lot of mobs).

I totally agree with the general idea - make EQ hard as it was back when we all were clueless.

Maybe make ALL the mobs hit for the 2x or 3x the damage they are supposed to and make sure they outrun any kind of speed spell outdoors AND indoors should be enough to make it pretty damn hard to get loot and exp?

Maybe also make all mobs summon so root/rot, fear kite and such don't work.

Basically force people to group and even then it should be super hard to achieve anything.

Regarding Traveling merchant...maybe it is a dumb idea. The thought was simply to address the whining from players who joined the server later not having access to Guises and Manastones and such. The idea would be that everyone would have hypothetical access to them...you'd just have to have enough plat and/or get really, really, really lucky. How lucky am I talking here? Like "AFK autorun through Sro on your way to and from Lower Guk and randomly run smack into the AC on the way there AND back" lucky. Or "randomly running around near the Windmill in LOIO and the Sarnak Courier spawns on top of you and drops a Gazughi ring" lucky. The idea would be that only a handful of players in a given real life calendar year would even SEE the guy, much less be able to buy from him. Basically, he should be almost mythical. It's just something to add spice to the server. By far the most disposable and least important suggestion I made, however, and the first one I'd jettison.

Nerfing charm: it's just overpowered in its current state. Charming in classic was more difficult, if only for hardware and client software limitations. But you didn't see pretty much every Enchanter soloing like crazy with Charm back in the day. Not even close. This is what I mean by focusing on the spirit rather than the letter of classic. The spirit of classic = Enchanters mostly grouping, CCing and buffing, charming only sporadically and at great risk to themselves.

You wouldn't need to change Necro soloing or Wizard quadding. Why? The loot code. So a Necro could solo and a Wizard could quad...but if they fuck up and die they will have one of their items looted by the mob, and have no one in their group able to kill it and get their item back. The Wiz would also be suffering the outdoor XP penalty if quadding, and if the Necro is soloing in a dungeon he's already taking a risk. It's all about risk versus reward.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Lakeland [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem comes in the fact that grouping, even back in the day, wasn't always possible and it sure won't always be possible on an emulated server with MUCH less population. So what are people to do when they aren't able to group? What will a new player like myself do when no one groups because they all have established guildmates/friends and the new player is running around with nothing? How long will new players play when they can't solo to level and sit forever waiting for a group because soloing has become so useless exp wise its not worth doing, especially since even with SoW the second you get an add your dead because you now can't run away from anything?

You want things that sound good, as I said it could even be better then it is now I'm not denying that, but it's not logically functional. You'd be running a completely hardcore server without any casual players, the irony is them players already only group/raid so what's the real change for them? If a server like you want existed how is any player that just entering going to accomplish anything?

I think some people who have played for a long time on 1999 forget what it's like to be a complete noob because your plan basically destroys any new players coming up. Just the food concept in general is enough to make people so frustrated they quit. If life happens and I have to log away from a city what do I do when I log back on? Run to a city wasting huge amounts of time just to buy food just to run all the way back to where I was? How is this helping advance the game or make it fun? Limiting my ability to play alts? How is that fun or useful? I just don't understand it from the concept of an old EQ player but new 1999 player.

Again I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I'm just saying it's absolutely not in the spirit of the classic game. I miss grouping in games to level (that's why I'm back here) but I don't think you can force that, you would just run people off the game. I mained a cleric back in EQ from launch, soloing wasn't really a thing for me but that was ok because I'd find groups easy enough and with a good reputation among the player base and guildmates I did just fine. With so few players here, I'm absolutely worried about trying to level my cleric as it is because no one looks for groups, everyone is twinked out and soloing or being powerleveled. If we were under your rules what would a new player as a cleric do? Don't say "Find a group" because that's the obvious answer but it just doesn't work that way as I said earlier.

EQ was hard, really hard at times, but it wasn't SO much so you wouldn't be able to do something while lfg. Your plan basically makes you sit bored if your lfg, well that's when your not running to a merchant every log in to get food and water.

Thank you, these are valid concerns and I finally see what you're getting at. But I think you're too focused on the negatives here, and too myopic in your scope. Yes, it would be tough as a new player - but it wouldn't just be tough for you. It would be tough for everyone. Including twinked players. And that's the point. And because it would be tough for everyone, you'd be pretty much forced to group together just to stay alive - and that's the spirit of classic!

I think the server would actually appeal more to casual players than hardcore raiders, because casual players in my experience tend to enjoy the leveling, grouping, exploring and socializing aspect of the game more than the raiding-focused players do. This would be a server with slow advancement/progression, but a lot of forced socialization and opportunities to interact and adventure with others. For example, something as currently mundane on the server as running from the DL Druid ring to FV might be so dangerous on a PvE+ server as to require at least a full group of mid 30s players, and be risky for most classes to attempt solo even in the 50s. What's the result? You force people to band together to accomplish things. And because of that, something as simple as running across DL engenders not only a feeling of accomplishment, but provides an opportunity for socialization and community building.

And ultimately, remember, even if this ruleset did exist, the Blue server would still remain the same as it is now. You could choose which you wanted to play on. So if this was too hardcore you could just play on Blue.

[Izmael]

Fair enough with the traveling merchant.

Charm in current state is powerful, is it OVERpowered though? I'm not sure.

Back in the days people just didn't know how to use it well. People were also a lot more scared to die than today because CR wasn't as trivial as it is today and getting res was far from trivial as well (travel was harder so you really had to sweet talk those clerics). Taking an exp death 55+ wasn't something a lot of people were too keen about really.

So basically less people even attempted charm soloing, arguably the hardest and most rewarding soloing path, let alone get good at it. I think literally 90%+ of level 60 druids never ever casted a single charm spell in their career back in the days (I'm talking 2001 and earlier).

Maybe charm breaks less on p99, but it makes this way of approaching EQ enjoyable, that's a Good Thing. One of the qualities of EQ has always been the "There's more than one way to do it" factor.

[Lakeland]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thank you, these are valid concerns and I finally see what you're getting at. But I think you're too focused on the negatives here, and too myopic in your scope. Yes, it would be tough as a new player - but it wouldn't just be tough for you. It would be tough for everyone. Including twinked players. And that's the point. And because it would be tough for everyone, you'd be pretty much forced to group together just to stay alive - and that's the spirit of classic!

I think the server would actually appeal more to casual players than hardcore raiders, because casual players in my experience tend to enjoy the leveling, grouping, exploring and socializing aspect of the game more than the raiding-focused players do. This would be a server with slow advancement/progression, but a lot of forced socialization and opportunities to interact and adventure with others. For example, something as currently mundane on the server as running from the DL Druid ring to FV might be so dangerous on a PvE+ server as to require at least a full group of mid 30s players, and be risky for most classes to attempt solo even in the 50s. What's the result? You force people to band together to accomplish things. And because of that, something as simple as running across DL engenders not only a feeling of accomplishment, but provides an opportunity for socialization and community building.

And ultimately, remember, even if this ruleset did exist, the Blue server would still remain the same as it is now. You could choose which you wanted to play on. So if this was too hardcore you could just play on Blue.

You keep saying "you group" but I don't understand how that just instantly works? Even in Classic when Seb was the best place to be getting a group was a chore, so when you say "you'd need to group" it makes me think of long times waiting for others to need to go to where I want to go or I simply won't be able to go there and I have to think how many would like that besides people with a strong group of players they can count on to group with. Also your going to create an elitist attitude because the risk is higher people will be less likely to just pick up randoms in a group.

We both agree that your ideas make it harder, anyone can see that, I just think it absolutely destroys any casual base the first time people log in and realize they have to find food/water then find a group to be able to do anything, then find an indoor zone because anything outside is basically useless experience wise. That sounds very non casual to me. That said I'm probably in the minority as a casual EQ player playing 1999 anyway so it very well could appeal to the masses.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Izmael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Charm in current state is powerful, is it OVERpowered though? I'm not sure.

Back in the days people just didn't know how to use it well. People were also a lot more scared to die than today because CR wasn't as trivial as it is today and getting res was far from trivial as well (travel was harder so you really had to sweet talk those clerics). Taking an exp death 55+ wasn't something a lot of people were too keen about really.

So basically less people even attempted charm soloing, arguably the hardest and most rewarding soloing path, let alone get good at it. I think literally 90%+ of level 60 druids never ever casted a single charm spell in their career back in the days (I'm talking 2001 and earlier).

Maybe charm breaks less on p99, but it makes this way of approaching EQ enjoyable, that's a Good Thing. One of the qualities of EQ has always been the "There's more than one way to do it" factor.

Again, this is why I make the distinction between the spirit and the letter of classic. Let's suppose that the code for charm on P1999 is somehow exactly the same as it was back in the day on Live, and that most Enchanters, Druids and Necros back then just weren't skilled or knowledgeable enough to take advantage of it. Even if that was the case, the end result would be the same as if charming was simply hardcoded to be more difficult: there were less people charming! That's all we can say for sure: whether due to ignorance/lack of player skill or actual hard coded differences with the spell, charming was much less common back in the day.

Thus, if we want to reproduce the spirit of classic (which had much less charming going on) we are forced to do so through hardcoding the resists of the spell itself, since we cannot erase our superior knowledge of the game. Essentially, we must play with an artificially higher difficulty setting due to our advanced knowledge and experience after having had 17 years to get comfortable with the game.

Increasing the difficulty of the game is the entire idea behind the ruleset. You would roll on the PvE+ server intentionally knowing it would be harder than what you were used to on Blue and had gotten comfortable with, but would do so with the expectation that as a result of that difficulty your overall experience would be closer to your original experience with the game many years ago.