most underpowered class in game?

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol so Haste, Slow, and Mana Regen are not utility?[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Maybe you just don't fully understand the term. Utility in general just means non DPS spells. I don't want to have to say "CC, Heals, Buffs, Charm, etc." every time.

Those things are mostly not utility, YOU are the one who doesn't understand the term.

Haste is nothing more than a way to generate DPS. Slow/Heal removes opposing DPS. Mana Regen gives people more ability to use their things that either generate or reduce damage. As I've tried to explain to you many times, this game mostly comes down to doing as much damage as possible while being able to survive.

Utility abilities are things that have applications outside of combat or maybe effect combat in ways that are more complex than a singular increase or decrease of damage. Although things like Root/Mesmerize/Stun can still be easily described in pure mathematical terms most of the time, via how much damage they are preventing because the enemy is not attacking. Root even adds DPS because it forces the enemy to hit the target you put damage shield on and allows your non-tank people to attack from behind (Mesmerize/Stun can occasionally "add" DPS as well by preventing a healing NPC from casting).

Since Root is the only "utility" needed most of the time, and so many classes have this ability (every class technically has a bit of rooting ability via root nets; sometimes you just need that to break the spawn rotation of a camp), it therefore makes "utility" not a high priority thing in groups.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In a mage/enc duo on cliff golems I don't think I'd swap the magician out for a shaman.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You should. Enchanters and Shamans can solo Cliff Golems. Mages can't solo Cliff Golems.

DeathsSuckyMist, you keep showing how ignorant you are at every turn. Even though we've tried to walk you through this in every way possible.

The point of killing Cliff Golems is because you want the loot they might have. Therefore, killing them as fast as possible results in more loot. Mage/Enchanter will get more gains than Shaman/Enchanter. For most situations, this same things holds true: You are trying to get as many gains as possible, in the form of exp or faction or loot, and killing as many things as possible and/or as efficiently as possible is the way to do it. Hence why DPS is King.

Also, your premise is incorrect to begin with. Mages can solo Cliff Golems.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paladin is nowhere close to most underpowered.

Strong utility kit. Great tanking. They can lull pull. They can solo better than war/rog. They have important raid roles.

Only kryptonite is low dps.

Paladins aren't needed for raids at all and they suck at soloing, you're going to progress incredibly slow like that. Better to just spend a bit of time getting a group together, same as a Warrior or Rogue. The gains a Paladin can make in the meantime while looking for a group are marginal. Considering their horrendous exp penalty before Velious, it's very much a loss compared to Warrior/Rogue when trying to level, including the contribution to a group. I'd rather take a Warrior more often than not as tank pre-Velious in an exp group, for their superior DPS and inherent exp bonus.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You see mages in exp groups all the time what are you even talking about?

I believe he's talking post 60. Imagine you have already levelled your character, tossed some raid gear on it, nothing's in window and you don't need any padding xp, what do you do with it? If you're a shaman maybe you go solo A4 or Ayillish or something, but as a mage?

I don't think mages are uniquely bad here, probably pretty similar to the rest of the bottom third or so of the classes on that metric. But for some classes having good answers to that question can be a strong perk.

[magnetaress]

Also, two, or three mages is one of the best ways to level or lock down a camp. Especially in real classic.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point of killing Cliff Golems is because you want the loot they might have.

Eh? If the wife and I hammer over to OT to beat up some golems, you can rest assured we don't give a damn what they drop. The reason we'd go there is to have a nice time enjoying the game's good mechanics in a convenient laid-back spot, doesn't matter whether we kill five or fifteen, whether they drop nothing or some random wizard spell or whatever. Different folks do stuff for vastly different reasons and obsessing over speed is far from universal. Point being, speed is only one aspect of a character, a nice one, but not the end-all be-all.

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You see mages in exp groups all the time what are you even talking about?

Speaking just for myself, having been 60 for a very long time and hence far removed from the leveling game, here's my very unscientific impression of what I tend to run in to out and about in the parts of the game I like to hang out in: I feel like I see a fair amount of enchanters, necromancers, shamans, clerics, druids, paladins, monks, and bards. Usually I'm cursing the bards. I don't see all that many warriors, rogues, shadowknights, rangers, magicians, or wizards. Doesn't mean they're not online, just they're not as often doing the same type of stuff that I like to do. For example I assume Warriors are disproportionately likely to be raiding. I probably see more paladins than random chance would suggest due to my own nostalgia for the class causing me to tend to talk paladin stuff them and invite 'em to hang out.

Danth

[Raj]

66 pages of Ca. 1999-2001 arguments still waging on with the greatest of passions!

Cool and normal stuff my friends! Let's see if we can get to 100+ pages by the end of the month. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paladins aren't needed for raids at all

Well well, I see someones never been on a low numbers AoW kill, fast vulak engage, or anything else remotely competitive since the soulfire nerf (paladin buff).

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eh? If the wife and I hammer over to OT to beat up some golems, you can rest assured we don't give a damn what they drop. The reason we'd go there is to have a nice time enjoying the game's good mechanics in a convenient laid-back spot, doesn't matter whether we kill five or fifteen, whether they drop nothing or some random wizard spell or whatever. Different folks do stuff for vastly different reasons and obsessing over speed is far from universal.

That's irrelevant to an objective analysis of power level. I love playing casual theme decks in Magic the Gathering. Doesn't mean the power level of those decks is high.

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Imagine you have already levelled your character, tossed some raid gear on it, nothing's in window and you don't need any padding xp, what do you do with it? If you're a shaman maybe you go solo A4 or Ayillish or something, but as a mage?

If you're a Mage you can solo/group in Plane of Mischief and various other spots too.

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well well, I see someones never been on a low numbers AoW kill, fast vulak engage, or anything else remotely competitive since the soulfire nerf (paladin buff).

If you are low numbers for something, Paladin isn't the class you want there to optimize the raid. "Competitive raid" in the p99 PvE sense is a joke and not what actual competition looks like, nor what classic EQ raiding looked like. You should explain why you think Paladin is some kind of benefit there anyway, I can probably tell you why what you're doing is not the best tactic. Soulfire wasn't used on Red99, btw, and ToV was being taken down with smaller amounts of people there than on Blue (and with characters who are geared less for PvE, wearing more resist-centric equip to guard against PvP).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Zuranthium simply doesn't know what he is talking about unfortunately. He has some weird fetish with DPS that simply blinds him to other aspects of the game. He doesn't understand that increasing DPS doesn't always work, or matter.

I am done with the thread. Mages are the most underpowered when looking at overall power. Underpowered does not mean bad, or you shouldn't play them. You simply need to think about this when deciding to roll a Mage, as you will hit your ceiling earlier than level 60, and not have much to do. They are basically a DPS class due to their lack of non-DPS spells (Utility Spells), and that puts them at the bottom with the other DPS classes (Rogue and Wizard).

Nobody has been able to provide proper Mage camps at level 60 that make Mages particularly good.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am done with the thread.

Did we just win the internet?

[Danth]

Yeah. Power and speed are not the same thing; the latter is but one component of the former. If speed was everything then rank people by the average DPS they do and, Bam!, you're done. EQ doesn't always work that way. Obsessing solely over maximum potential speed ignores other aspects of character strength such as staying power, ease of use, reliability, versatility, synergy with other characters, and realistic ceiling vs. absolute ceiling. A rogue can do higher potential damage than a monk can but by any reasonable metric the monk's the stronger character overall.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I still think rather poorly of wizards and probably rate them most underpowered, personally. It struggles to a unique degree to even accomplish its own primary role. If we disagree DSM, well, there's room in the world for that.

Danth