People that never played classic EQ

[radda]

the game was hard, plain and simple. thats why we like it. its simple in design and its fun fighting a force.

i always enjoyed getting jumped as a kid, with my friends, from the neighborhood trash.
it was challenging and i made the best of it.

[scythic]

I think part of the difficulty of the games also comes from amassing gear. We don't get a new gear for collecting 6 flowers from the ground. It takes time, luck and a group of friends. This gets watered down over time by twinking and such but when the game is pure, on a fresh server, it gets pretty difficult.
MMO's take a different kind of skill. I would say that patience is a skill. I would say social skills are a large part of EQ. Game knowledge is a huge part of being a good EQ player as well.

[Esheon]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please show me all your characters in all of those games that have completed all of the end game (which is the majority of the game). Thank you. Apparently auto-attacking the majority of content is hard.

Snark aside...

In WoW and MxO, I mostly just did PvP, though I did tag along in a few raids. In SWG I was a crafter with property on most planets in the game.

In EQ2, there wasn't much raiding to start, but my Conjuror did have a prismatic. Guild fell apart in DoF (drama, ugh), so some friends and I went to WoW for a while. I came back shortly before TSO came out, and got Conjuror/Paladin/Shaman/Swashbuckler with Mythical epics. During TSO, I was single-grouping WoE and handing the loot out to guildies to get them ready for the 4-group raids. Then when SF came out you pretty much had to drop a lot of your previous raid loot and get the SF heroic stuff so you had the new stats they'd added. As stated, I was tanking high-end SF group instances on a Swashbuckler, and we had gotten through about half of the SF raid content. I took a break from gaming in general and did some John Denver hippy stuff for a while, and I haven't been back to EQ2 since (though I keep meaning to log in and see what they did with Velious).

LotRO didn't have much in the way of raid content either. Well before MoM, the Balrog was a regular farm for us... We could single-group him, so much like I later did in EQ2/WoE, we brought a second group of under-equipped guildies and let them loot everything. My main, Eshwulf, was considered to be one of the best Minstrels on the Elendilmir server around that time. When MoM came out, we did the whole "race to the top" thing again, and I hit The Watcher a few times before the guild died off (drama strikes again).

Vanguard had no raid content at all until after I left the game. I did however have a capped paladin and shaman, both in full Ichta armour, which was as end-game as it got back then.

In SWtoR, I currently have a capped Operative (heal spec) in a mix of Arkanian & Verpine gear. I've done all 55 HMFPs and a several of the HMOps. I haven't gotten very lucky on the gear drops so far, so I've bought Verpine instead of looting Underworld... I'm at the point now where if I replace any more of the Arkanian I'll lose my set bonus, so the only decent upgrade is for me to win some raid loot rolls. Of course, I've been letting SWtoR slide in favor of P99 now...

So, while I may not have completed "all" of the endgame content (why go back and raid Faydwer when I have VP and epics to finish?), I have been just behind the hardcore guilds in most of the games I've played. I think I'm qualified to say which games are easier than others.

As others in this thread have stated, "hard" or "difficult" aren't really the best words to use, but they're the ones that come to mind. The game itself is not difficult to PLAY (In fact, I find it kind of relaxing compared to other, faster-paced games). Primarily, when I say the EQ is "hard", I'm primarily talking about two "game mechanics"...

1.) Limited Soloability
In just about any game on the market, you can easily solo to cap level on any class in the game. Some games even give you a pet or mercenary to follow you around and HELP you solo. Also, in many games only instanced content is group-required.

In Classic EQ, this just doesn't happen. Sure, a few classes can solo very well, but even then they're mostly doing outdoor zones with room to run around. If you want to explore a dark dungeon deep within the earth, you need some friends to come along.

2.) Penalty for Failure (or Stupidity)
Most games have little to no death penalty. In SWtoR and LotRO, I have no problem suiciding my character just to get somewhere faster... all it costs is a little cash for repairs. Back when I played WoW, you ran back to your corpse as an invincible ghost. In games like that, I do stupid stuff without even thinking of it. It's a feeling of "what the heck, it doesn't matter if I die".

By contrast, death in EQ has consequences. Even in the easiest circumstances (epic clicky cleric standing behind you), you still lose some experience and have to wait for rez effects to wear off. Most of the time people aren't so lucky... maybe your group's cleric only has a 50% rez, or you're being healed by a shaman who has NO rez, or you randomly died while running from one place to another and you can't convince a cleric to go out there and rez you. The mere fact that these consequences exist promotes a different style of play.

Oh, and 3.) The Endurance bar keeps impatient idiots from jumping around constantly when they get bored.

[Waedawen]

Mobs and dungeons DEMAND you 'Look Before Y Leap', consequences for death, player versus player competition (for environmental resources as WELL as dominance)

Put these ingredients into a crock pot and you get a good game

[Eliseus]

So I'm trying to compile a list of things between WoW, and project 1999. Let's also be fair and assume are talking about classic WoW, and not current WoW (even though a lot of stuff in current WoW is actually "harder") since we aren't talking about current EQ.

Leveling up

Everquest - Takes longer, hell levels, lots of jobs benefit from being in a group. Lose EXP upon death, can delevel. Little effort involved in the leveling process besides auto-attacking for the most part, unless you are a job like bard, or shaman (and even then, can put up buffs and call it a day).

WoW - More solo friendly to lvl for all jobs, fastest way to level is actually grouping and doing dungeons. Lose exp. Can't delevel. In terms of leveling, significantly faster than EQ. Classic rotations were very complex, except jobs like hunter who could macro a significant amount of their skills, but you still push more buttons than most if not all EQ classes.

Combat

EQ - most jobs involve just auto-attacking. I mean really, lets face it, a tank can just auto-attack. Melee can just auto-attack, you have a few other stuff you can use, but realistically, it's auto-attack quest. Again, stuff like bards and other classes will do more, but jobs like cleric just rotate CH rotations. On top of the zerg fest that exists in EQ, that strategies that were already very minimal, are almost (if not completely) non-existent.

WoW - combat leveling up can be 1 button (in classic as you got higher, it was more difficult to get away with this in higher level zones). Any serious content was several buttons, for all classes. There was not just 1 or 2 mechanics to watch out for on encounters, but several. Could not just auto-attack anything / send in a pet afk.

PvP

EQ - lawls

WoW - Amazing

Loot

EQ - Compete against other for claims on stuff, compete against guild members for loot.

WoW - Except for the World bosses who dropped loot that wasn't as good as raid loot (iirc) it was just compete against guild member for loot. Loot tables are significantly larger than EQ loot tables. Lockouts for raid encounters are 7 days guaranteed.

Factions

EQ - Factions are crazy in EQ and could in some instances be completely destroyed and never gained back. Faction grinding in EQ has got to be some of the grindiest stuff I've ever done / seen.

WoW - You couldn't really "destroy" your faction. If you were alliance you were alliance. If you were horde, you were horde. Some of the neutral factions you could lose rep with. Gaining rep in comparison was a complete joke except for a couple of reps (insane in the membrane anyone?).

Money

Making money in both games imo is a joke, so won't even really touch that, I do know it's "harder" for others to make money in both, but assuming you have troubles making cash in 1, you would have troubles in the other. Both games have stuff that NPCs for decent amounts. Both have stuff that sells to players for decent amounts. I do know that WoW has the auction house which could be portrayed as an easier way to make cash since you can throw stuff up and log out. So I guess technically EQ has WoW beat in terms of difficulty here.

Skilling up

EQ - Crafting can be dreaful, some mats more annoying to come by. Combat skills are pretty annoying.

WoW - Crafting has always been pretty easy in WoW. Most mats are readily available and a joke to get. Had to clear certain raid encounters to even have a chance to learn how to create certain recipes. Combat skills were easy to lvl up, but seemed to significantly slow down closer to cap.

Maybe I missed a lot, but just from this, I wouldn't say EQ is just straight up "harder". I base a lot of my opinion on what is hard off of end game when I compare games because that is where a lot of the action goes on. The action I care about at least, and in terms of combat/end game, WoW is definitely significantly harder than EQ, hands down, but I could see why someone would think EQ is harder. There is a lot of aspects in EQ that wasn't necessarily hard, but very grindy, so the game definitely feels more rewarding in some aspects (like reputation), but harder? I wouldn't necessarily say it was harder. Maybe I don't know what I'm saying though, I view myself as someone that is just good at all games though, and I find it extremely easy to be someone that is good at EQ.

Also note that I haven't completely given a 100% in either classic EQ of classic WoW, but I do know the things I have listed to be true, so some stuff may be missing.

[Tovin]

An additional thought that wasn't mentioned above:

Skill is extremely meaningful in EQ. As a result, the game attracts hardcore players who like to know that their skills enable them to be a more effective player. What do I mean by this?

When I played EQ back in 1999 there was a HUGE range of game knowledge and skills. There were enchanters who took forever to mezz, monks who waiting for a mob to die before bringing the next (or perhaps lacked the ability to split), clerics who couldn't time a CH, and myriad other skill deficiencies. An unskilled group was not nearly as effective as a skilled one.

Additionally, skill opens a lot of doors in EQ as EQ gives you the opportunity to challenge yourself. Is it easy to zerg rush dragons with a 72 person raid? Of course. I don't think that's where people derive most of their fun. I think they derive fun from taking a group of 6 people and attempting to 1 group raid content. The same can be said for duoing a Named mob designed for a group. It's fun because your skill is often the difference between winning / dying. In the end, "challenge" in EQ is based on your play style -- and the game permits all levels of challenge.

[Redanger]

I had never played EQ until P99. Today I have a 60 shaman. It's a long rant... but this server has really infused me with the realization of why I miss the MMOs of old.

P99 has given me one of the best MMO experiences I've ever had - and I have played a lot of them.

A friend of mine who used to play EQ found the server and mentioned that I should give it a try. I really had no idea what I was getting myself into. The combat was so... slow. A monster equal level to me would send me running to the guards.

But I persevered because my friend was with me. And I found something that is missing from today's button mashing MMOs. Time to actually talk to your party. This is a crazy element to me. These days running a dungeon in WoW you literally join a queue, click 'accept', aoe down some mobs for 20 minutes and then go on your way - never to see these people again. Sometimes not a word is exchanged.

I found that grouping with certain people who synergized with my Shaman gave me an experience that today's MMOs cannot give. I was able to make friends so easily on P99 compared to other games. No one shit talked me not a single time when I told them I was new and I had no idea where I was going or what the fuck I was doing.

The things that really stick out to me that you just don't see anymore:

-There is an absolutely *ridiculous* synergy that exists from having different classes in a group. I swear - the first time I grouped with an Enchanter changed my life.

I was a terrible level 14 or so Shaman trying to fight some spiders in Guk and I met Mano, the Enchanter. I joined his guild <Azure Guard> in like 2012 before they even had a single raid-level player because he seemed overly willing to help me learn how to play EQ. I'm still in that guild.

And then I got Clarity for the first time... that spell changes how the game is played. I was addicted to crack. I didn't understand why people were "/ooc LF Crack pls". But now I did.

And before you know it we became a well oiled machine... Malo on the pet, Slows on the kill target. Ever since I first tried it - charm fighting with a hilariously overbuffed pet that will MURDER YOU if not handled perfectly - it has been my favorite way to play the game.

I leveled probably 10x faster with a single party member than I would have on my own because of group synergy and the fact that this random dude was so willing to help me. And he was grateful that I was willing to stick with him, because he was leveling insanely fast too. I have never had such a symbiotic experience in any game I've ever played.

-Grouping is a NECESSITY to get things that are worthwhile done. Forcing players to have to rely on each other creates a community. I have never played a game where I went out of my way to help others who were weaker than I except this one. I don't even know why I would spend time helping strangers when they asked. I guess I felt like I should pay it forward, as there were many strangers who helped me on my journey to 60.

-Player reputation matters! The server is small enough that you remember people's names but large enough that it is not a ghost town. This is a wonderful thing really. If someone is a dick to you on a cross-server group in today's MMOs you will never see them again and they can continue acting like an asshat. On P99 if someone tarnishes their reputation enough they might have to go so far as to reroll because no one will want anything to do with them. It keeps people accountable and friendly. Better to make friends now for when you need to form a raid group to complete your epic, ya know?

-Knowledge is the most powerful tool in EQ, and there are so many deep nuances to every zone and most classes are fairly deep. It was amazing to me what I could do as a Shaman once I learned the layout of a zone, and once I figured out how to canni-dance. And honestly, a lot of it is not documented - even today. It's in player's heads. People just *know* things that other people don't. This is so much different than current MMOs. I swear I feel like I have played the next WoW expansion before it's even been released everything is datamined and published so hard.

-Absolute Immersion. It's really a great thing that travel is not so easy on P99. Getting on my flying mount and pointing in whatever direction I need to go really doesn't make me feel connected to the game. And it sure as hell doesn't feel like I'm exploring things. EQ really sucks you in because of all of the danger that exists in the world and it just feels alive having to do things like avoid guards because I'm a big ugly Troll.

--

All of these things really make EQ on P99 for me. The discovery of new things. The fact that grouping is rewarded so heavily. The fact that there is enough time to actually have a conversation with people in your group and actually get to know them. And then since the community is just the right size you will actually see them again in the future.

---

Shoutout to Slitherfizzler and Mano. My two friends who really got me into this server. I really thought I would never find a reason to stay up all night and go to work exhausted over a video game like I did with school as a teenager ever again... but P99 did.

[new player]

I couldn't imagine starting out playing this game recently. This game is extremely hard in my opinion.

[Ganjar]

I would never say classic EQ was hard, however corpse runs and experience loss made me wanna take the Fetal Position and cry.

Gates of Discord was balls to the wall hard, not so much classic EQ.

[Hogfather]

EQ is brutal, grindy and unforgiving. Skill requirement depends on class and context.