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  #11  
Old 09-26-2020, 10:59 PM
Noselacri Noselacri is offline
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Originally Posted by Ivory [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Well, depends what level range.... and what they are doing.
Melee damage, over 5 minutes, is 1 swing per 1.5 seconds (it's actually more like 1 swing per second with a haste, but let's give melee a disadvantage). And let's take out proc weapons or specialized target hunting (like a necro proccing for 585 is going to be too strong). Over 5 minutes, that's 200 swings.

So, let's do a rod of annihilation. 40/40....on a necro that will be hitting up to 80, but let's not go too bananas here, let's just say it's 40 on average.

That's 8000 damage.....

BUT we haven't figured in procs!

Vampiric embrace is 62 damage at level 50... and the proc rate per minute is dex / 170 + 0.5.... so with 170 dex, you get 1.5 procs per minute. ((if you go up to 255 dex, your PPM goes to 2... which over 5 minutes, means you get 10 procs over 5 minutes about))

But at the low 160 dex, you have 7.5 proc of 62 damage ....which is 465 damage, JUST from procs of vampiric embrace (this proc rate is the same for the undead legions staff, which is 585 damage x 7.5....or 4387 damage JUST from that staffs procs over 5 minutes). For reference, the nuke necros have is a 210 mana damage spell that does 500 damage.... so vampiric embrace alone is giving you about a free nuke.

So, that takes the total melee damage over 5 minutes to 8465 damage....compared to a FULL damage dot necro to 4230..... less than half....
Isn't it really optimistic to assume that you'll do 40 damage per swing on average? Quite a lot of them will miss, necros cap their weapon skills at 110. I'd be surprised if you land even half of your attacks, and many of those will be for minimal damage.

And how are you getting a 40 delay weapon down to 1 or 1.5 seconds? Even 100% haste would result in an effective delay of 20.

These numbers just don't seem to add up.
  #12  
Old 09-26-2020, 11:45 PM
Ivory Ivory is offline
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Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Isn't it really optimistic to assume that you'll do 40 damage per swing on average? Quite a lot of them will miss, necros cap their weapon skills at 110. I'd be surprised if you land even half of your attacks, and many of those will be for minimal damage.

And how are you getting a 40 delay weapon down to 1 or 1.5 seconds? Even 100% haste would result in an effective delay of 20.

These numbers just don't seem to add up.
Necro melee isn't THAT bad. I was just battling a bunch of ice giants with melee... and with a 9 damage weapon, I was regularly hitting for 18 - 22ish. So with a 40 damage weapon, hitting for around 80 - 100 is going to be more typical, though with misses 40 is safer to calculate from.

The attack speed were just a random thing, but at level 60 you have a haste cap of 100% (with a haste buff + item you are there).

New (Hasted) Delay = Delay/(1+Haste)

So really it would be at 2 seconds per swing with the rod. Which is 150 attacks over 5 minutes... which doesn't effect the proc damage (since it's per minute based in general), but brings the melee damage down to 40 x 150 = 6000 + 465.... which is still 6465 damage compared to a dotting necro getting FULL damage of 4230.

BUT again, that damage is at 4.7 DPM....assuming you get FULL damage from all of your dots over 5 minutes.

It's still so far from where a melee necro gets (and we don't really know the exact amount, since there is some wiggle room for that necro melee to be even higher... or lower, if they miss a ton, but I don't really notice THAT much missing).

Quote:
Quite a lot of them will miss, necros cap their weapon skills at 110.
Yup, necros weapon skills are lower, but that isn't make or break. Especially since you can compensate some for attack skill with strength. So 1 strength can make up for 1 weapon skill (and there is a lot of room to boost that, even with the level 60 kunark build, the strength is sitting at just 141... so if going full DPS in a group, grab a strength buff of 68 from a shaman.

Let alone the more mysterious finding that higher strength will increase your max damage hits... which actually might explain why I was seeing hits for 50 with my 20 damage staff, since casters don't get the main hand bonus damage... so it was just coming from my 101 strength right now? Hmmm, that might make melee even more effective than I thought with more focus on strength.

I'm reading it now, and it looks like your MOD bonus is

(Offensive skill + STR) / 100

For necromancer, they cap at 140 offense

So

(140 + 250) / 100 = 3.9

Which means with a 40 damage weapon, you will have a max hit of 156 (if you get up to 250 str).

With a more modest 140 str

(140 + 140) / 100 = 2.8

or 112 damage.....

Hmmm, I wonder if going heavier into strength would be more worth it for a bone knight? Some weapons are just too strong to ignore their procs (the undead legions and then a couple velious ones).... but maybe a more balanced approach to dex and str would be good.

So, why don't we hear about more casters meleeing? There is just a strange mentality around it (even though the numbers seem to be quite fine). What caster is focusing on their STR any?? Let alone getting a haste item or even bothering to keep their skills up?

Even lower level you don't see casters or clerics meleeing (even though their weapon / offensive skills haven't dropped off yet, making them as good at melee as a knight class.... with necromancers vampiric embrace making them BETTER melees than knights).

Anyhow, build wise, I think switching out the earrings and rings and maybe shoulder / back for more strength... and then shaman buff + siphon would be enough to take strength up towards 250ish (while still having high dex).

Being able to hit for almost 160 sure would be something though!!!!

Heck, let's calculate the level 60 damage hitting at 2/3rds of your hits at about 3/4ths of your max hit.

Which is about 80 damage per hit (if you put in the misses as just reduction in damage, so 160 x 0.75 x 0.66 = 80).... for 150 hits... that's 12,000 damage!!! From melee damage alone (again, still about 500 damage from procs added on there too).... with the possibility of going higher if you are fully melee buffed or lower the AC of the target.

Compared to a caster necro.... getting that same 900ish mana from medding... and turning it into dots.... even level 50+ dots aren't giving you better than 4.7 damage per mana...... so still sitting at about 4230 damage (maybe they can cast a tiny bit more with their increase of 2 mana per tick from meditating......of 50 ticks over 5 minutes... or 100 extra mana..... so, 470 extra damage than they had at 50?)

It's just night and day in terms of the potential damage. Even if you cut the damage of melee by HALF, it STILL blows the medding necro out of the water.

......

I dunno, the more I look at the numbers, the more bananas meleeing seems to be at higher levels with a proper build and some key high end items.

But don't think you NEED the rod of annihilation either. Because a 1:1 ratio weapon for a caster isn't THAT crazy. Especially once velious hits you can get velium brawl sticks and go to town.

Where does it ULTIMATELY all end up? Well.... the most amazing, top tier bone weapon of all time... is this...

https://wiki.project1999.com/Staff_of_the_Silent_Star

15/18... procs a 400 DD with -300 fire resist checks.......

Now THAT is the ultimate weapon of DPS in melee for a bone knight. Combining the procs with the raw melees.... so amazins.
  #13  
Old 09-27-2020, 12:00 AM
Ivory Ivory is offline
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Originally Posted by Donkey Hotay [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
What about Grim Aura, you wee kneecapper?
It raises attack by 10.... which is like raising STR by 10 (for attack rating at least).

But lasts for 27 minutes. I don't think it's worth the trouble really. Maybe later if you get the clicky earring? But switching out spells to buff that all the time would be a pain for such a tiny tiny improvement.
  #14  
Old 09-27-2020, 12:55 AM
Donkey Hotay Donkey Hotay is offline
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Yeah, the spell juggling is a real PITA. Is that fading aura Vampiric Embrace or Grim Aura? Is that lich dropping or Recourse?
  #15  
Old 09-27-2020, 10:38 AM
Castle2.0 Castle2.0 is offline
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Ivory stole my style of post. I like it. Keep up the number crunching dude, I will roll a necro when the necro master race can be chosen and will try to get some numbers posted here as well.
  #16  
Old 10-05-2020, 06:20 AM
Ivory Ivory is offline
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I was doins some maths today... and discovered how bone knights go....

monks got 78% chance to double attack, and 78% chance to duel wield at level 60.

So if they got a 14/26 weapon (which is their default fists), with a modifier of 5, they got 70 a hit (78 after mhb). or 139 in main hand a round average, and average of 98 in the off hand. For a total of 237 per round on average. (not including to-hit and misses). Max haste they got 1.3 round a second, so 364 per 2 second (again, not including misses)

ok pretty good. Snazzy potatoes.

BUUUTTT, let's take a caster with rod of annihilation! 40/40 , with a modifier of 3.65 ...gives them a top hit of 146 per round!! with the same 2 second delay at max haste

In other words, they do 40% of the damage a monk can do in melee!! Before adding on a little more for procs (so maybe a little more, 42%?).

...........

silent star staff is 15/18, or 55 a hit!! with a 1 second delay (since i don't think you can go under that with haste? unless you can, then it's a .9 second delay)

Anyhow, pretty good, but not gonna blow your socks off....

UNTIL!! You calculate that proc rate is (dex / 170) + 0.5 ! Per minute. So at 255 dex, you got 2 PPM. So that adds an extra 800 damage per minute from procs. Or 13.33 damage per second. Bringing it up to 68 damage per second, or 136 per 2 second.... HHMMMM waitasecond, but the rod of annihilation was 146 per 2 second!!!

Oh no, this changes everything!! Maybe the rod of annihilation is truly the greatest weapon there is??

..............

no no no, there is another... the 40/30 rod!! Which is the same damage as rod of anihilation, at 146 per round... BUT it's every 1.5 seconds. Giving a 194 damage per 2 second round.

That means they do 53% of damage as monks with that weapon! compared to 40% damage with the rod of annihilation.

..................

now, I know what you may be wondering... "what is the rod like if it's full damage and the GMs didn't nerf the power of bone knights" . I'm glad you asked.

60/40, is 219 per round!! monks for 364 per round... so becomes 60% of monk damage with the un-nerfed version!
  #17  
Old 10-05-2020, 06:36 AM
Ivory Ivory is offline
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Now I gotta calculate the undead staff.... which is a 20/47

At 3.6 modifier, is doin 72 per hit, with max haste is 2.35 seconds per round.... or 61 damage per round
With 2 PPM, or 1170 damage from procs, which is 19.5 damage per second, or 39 per round.

So in total is 100 damage per round, or 50 DPS.

Is not shabby for this point in the timeline, but the rod of annihilation (even without that meaty proc) will do better -nods nods-
  #18  
Old 10-05-2020, 11:12 AM
Noselacri Noselacri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivory [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
In other words, they do 40% of the damage a monk can do in melee!! Before adding on a little more for procs (so maybe a little more, 42%?).
You still seem to wilfully ignore the fact that a necromancer is operating at caps of 110 in 1HB/2HB and 140 in offense while a monk has 252 in both. The necro will have like 600 atk. A 60 monk with decent gear has what, 1100 unbuffed? You can't try to napkin math the DPS without taking that into account at all.
Last edited by Noselacri; 10-05-2020 at 11:21 AM..
  #19  
Old 10-05-2020, 11:21 AM
Ivory Ivory is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You still seem to wilfully ignore the fact that a necromancer is operating at caps of 110 in 1HB and 140 in offense while a monk has 252 in both.
The weapon cap of 110 is what influences primarily damage bonus (which is why monk has such a high damage modifier on their weapon, and necros only get 3.6 as a max modifier).

And having only 140 offense isn't THAAAT bad. You can still land lots of hits. The attack on a fully geared bone knight in velious is 740 https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_...of_All_Time!!!!!!
Last edited by Ivory; 10-05-2020 at 11:28 AM..
  #20  
Old 10-05-2020, 12:00 PM
Toad1 Toad1 is offline
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Casters miss 70% of the time

also i think i want to drop out of high school to become a boneknight
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