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Old 11-19-2019, 12:56 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Default /list Should Be More Classic

A lot of people don't realize this, but the /list command is actually extremely classic .. just not its literal implementation. On live, GMs absolutely did enforce lists for mobs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://wiki.project1999.com/Kunark_Era_Customer_Service_Guidelines
8.2.3 Contested Spawn Complaints

When a complaint is received indicating that a spawn or kill is contested, a disruption investigation should first be initiated ... After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, if any of the parties involved were involved in the initial situation, establish a compromise ... as described in section 8.2.3.1.

...

8.2.3.1 The compromise will require all parties to take turns killing the spawn(s). All parties involved in the contested spawn should be instructed to use /random 0 100 to choose a number. The CS Representative then uses /random 0 100. The individual with the closest number to the CS Representative’s number will be next in the rotation. The CS Representative then bases the rest of the rotation order on how close the other parties’ numbers were to theirs. The compromise established by a CS Representative must be objective and not require the CS Representative to choose one customer over another based on subjective criteria. The CS Representative is the arbiter in any disputes in establishing the compromise. 8.2.3.1
P99's /list is clearly intended to model that, with less human involvement. But the problem is, the mechanism isn't classic enough. On live you'd never have people needing to stay awake for 24+ hour, if for no other reason than that the GM involved in handling the situation had to sleep themselves!

I propose a simple/classic change to /list: no more than three (or four, or whatever) members on the list at any time, because on live that's all you could practically ever have.

So what happens to the 4th+ person? The moment whoever is 1st on the list drops off, there's a window (eg. one minute): if you /list during that time you effectively /random (classic!) to be next on the list with everyone else who does the command during that window. When the window ends, the server tells the winner and everyone else has to wait and try again. This would simulate a bunch of people waiting at a spawn and pestering a GM to have a roll to decide who's next (but without wasting precious volunteer staff time).

This system would be closer to live, as it wouldn't simulate never-sleeping GMs, it wouldn't involve anyone waiting for days, account sharers would gain no special benefit (just 8 more hours of attempts), and it would (as classic did) involve rolls! Plus, IMHO any mechanic that requires people to not sleep for 24+ hours is just mean on some level: humans truly do need sleep.

If the staff did this no one would have to forego sleep, no one (except the few people actually on the list) would have to do /afk checks, and if you are trying to get a legacy item you lose nothing (except 8 hours of attempts) by going to bed every night. You'd show up at the camp, watch for your chance to /list, and if you miss your chance or "roll" badly, you just go to sleep and try again in the morning.

More classic, better for P99 player health, still gives a 100% fair system for legacy items (that absolutely still rewards people who put in more effort) ... ok forum, shoot me down [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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Last edited by loramin; 11-19-2019 at 01:16 PM..
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:41 PM
solidious77 solidious77 is offline
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From what I have read on the list in various posts (which is not neary all of them), it seems that it has a few minor issues.

The most obvious of which, is that it forces an abnormal gameplay style of a grind it until you get it. While I've applied this methodology to many camps throughout time, it was never for a 12+ hour straight grind. A more reasonable and much more typical camp is where you could put in 6ish hours if you happen to have a free day; not 20, let alone 40+ hours straight.

The second issue being that while this list was implemented to prevent shitty gameplay and monopolization of these items/camps, I'm not sure if its actually accompolishing this. It seems to me that the average player that this list was supposed to cater to, is still overwhelmingly unmatched compared to the extreme and unhealthy dedication some of the community has towards this game. I'm not sure that obessesion will subside and line-times reduced either.. If these people are willing to put in 50 hours for their first manastone, I can see this being repeated when the initial wave subsides and the grind is morelike 20ish hours. I'm totally guessing and really tossing an arbitrary number, but I'm not sure the list-time will reduce much further than that, ever.

Lastly, the exploit to get around the personal straight grind; by having your buddy take over for a while.. If the whole point of the list was to stop people and guildies from monopolizing and passing the camp onto their friends, then it really doesn't make sense that you can logout, have your friend login to your account, and continue on the list while the initial player sleeps. I'm all for that healthy rest, but its seems kinda contradictory to part of the main point of letting everyone have their fair shot at these legacy items when not everyone has trusted guildies or real life friends that can help them do the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I propose a simple/classic change to /list: no more than three (or four, or whatever) members on the list at any time, because on live that's all you could practically ever have.
Rationalize it however you want from a classic vs non-classic perspective, but I do think your idea addresses a lot of these core issues with the list. By reducing the overall list-time by capping it at 4 or 5 ppl, that will also cap the max wait time for said people; and in-turn, also reduce the need to exploit the camp by sharing accounts/camp time. I also do agree that this will encourage a more natural gameplay style of checking/traveling to the desired camp to see whats good.
Last edited by solidious77; 11-19-2019 at 01:48 PM..
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:45 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solidious77 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
From what I have read on the list in various posts (which is not neary all of them), it seems that it has a few minor issues.

The most obvious of which, is that it forces an abnormal gameplay style of a grind it until you get it. While I've applied this methodology to many camps throughout time, it was never for a 12+ hour straight grind. A more reasonable and much more typical camp is where you could put in 6ish hours if you happen to have a free day; not 20, let alone 40+ hours straight.

The second issue being that while this list was implemented to prevent shitty gameplay and monopolization of these items/camps, I'm not sure if its actually accompolishing this. It seems to me that the average player that this list was supposed to cater to, is still overwhelmingly unmatched compared to the extreme and unhealthy dedication some of the community has towards this game. I'm not sure that obessesion will subside and line-times reduced either.. If these people are willing to put in 50 hours for their first manastone, I can see this being repeated when the initial wave subsides and the grind is morelike 20ish hours. I'm totally guessing and really tossing an arbitrary number, but I'm not sure the list-time will reduce much further than that, ever.

Lastly, the exploit to get around the personal straight grind; by having your buddy take over for a while.. If the whole point of the list was to stop people and guildies from monopolizing and passing the camp onto their friends, then it really doesn't make sense that you can logout, have your friend login to your account, and continue on the list while the initial player sleeps. I'm all for that healthy rest, but its seems kinda contradictory to part of the main point of letting everyone have their fair shot at these legacy items when not everyone has trusted guildies or real life friends that can help them do the same.
Some things we can't change: unhealthy players are one of them. All the staff can do is try to design a system that channels unhealthy ugres in the most healthy way possible.

I think my proposal does that better than the current system, but that's really more like a side effect of my argument. When it comes to P99, if there's a fight over "make it better for the players" or "make it classic", guess which one (usually) wins? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So however great it may be for all of us, my primary argument here has nothing to do with getting players to act better (and I 100% acknowledge that no proposal can ever really "solve" that problem) ... my main point is: let's keep it classic!
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  #4  
Old 11-19-2019, 02:04 PM
turbosilk turbosilk is offline
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The first compelling proposal over seen. I would recommend increasing the /list well beyond 3 or 4 people tho.
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Old 11-19-2019, 02:25 PM
Daldaen Daldaen is offline
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The purpose of the list system is to prevent a group or guild of neckbeard’s from handing off the camp to their pals, effectively letting a single clique lock down the camp for days, weeks or months. Which we did see on Blue with Locket of Escape for example.

By capping the number of listing players as low as 3 or 4, you’re creating a situation where the list will almost always be perpetually full. Then any vacancies with be announced in guild chats or nerd discord’s in advance of them leaving, and a batphone will go out to log in and roll for that rarely opening slot.

Fix the drop rate on the Manastone to be closer to 20-25% to match other Rares from classic and make the list lockout a lifetime lockout for Manastone and Rubicite BP. Those two changes will make this mostly a non-issue.
Last edited by Daldaen; 11-19-2019 at 02:29 PM..
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  #6  
Old 11-19-2019, 02:33 PM
solidious77 solidious77 is offline
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Those are good points too, and it makes me also think that capping the list might not change much.. 20+ people could still just sit there spamming /list for to get their chance to get on it everytime EE is about to be looted. Maybe a different 20 people everyone few hours though /shrug.

Lifetime lockout has always made the most sense to help fix long-term congestion. Considering its only been a few weeks though, i don't think repeat farmers are necessarily the main cause of congestion atm.
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Old 11-19-2019, 02:34 PM
Nirgon Nirgon is offline
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You're gonna put the time in or not get one.

Same goes with having your asses in gear for Velious to get Sleeper's keys.
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  #8  
Old 11-19-2019, 02:39 PM
solidious77 solidious77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You're gonna put the time in or not get one.

Same goes with having your asses in gear for Velious to get Sleeper's keys.
You could make this same argument before the list was implemented though.. So considering the point of the list, and the fact it is implmented, this statement makes little to no sense [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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  #9  
Old 11-19-2019, 03:07 PM
Wurl Wurl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
make the list lockout a lifetime lockout for Manastone and Rubicite BP
This please.
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  #10  
Old 11-19-2019, 03:17 PM
Cuktus Cuktus is offline
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Put EE on a 30sec spawn cycle and always drops the stone. Make stone lore/no drop.
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