New OOA Non-aggression agreement

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by Artaenc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Will you be banning people that used it in the past? To make it fair I'd like to use it if it is currently not punishable to even the grounds on FTE while you're working on the solution.

Autofire and other similar programs/hardware is still not allowed on this server.

[Pint]

Originally Posted by Komodon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Although i guess now we can extend the autofire issue beyond the "not class R's problem" stance you took with me last time we spoke, and potentially make it a weekly one for everybody. Not just TMO's in VP.

Happy Hunting/Clicking.

So essentially since class R didn't force IB to play by the rules Tmo wants, Tmo is going to shit down all of our throats in response. New Tmo, old Tmo, it's all Tmo to us at the end of the day.

[Nightbear]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If everyone were to agree to this

Who is everyone? Everyone apart of the Sky rotation?

Just wondering how any player agree'd upon rules enforced by GMs affects guild who are completely against the class system.

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Nightbear [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Who is everyone? Everyone apart of the Sky rotation?

Just wondering how any player agree'd upon rules enforced by GMs affects guild who are completely against the class system.

basically everyone that signs will be held to the agreement was my understanding

this particular agreement only becomes one once all the Sky guilds sign it ( only missing TMO and IB off the schedule currently)

so for example: Lord Bob never signs or agrees to this,the GMs cant punish them for killing the Overseer however they also face heavy pressure and public scrutiny...also it becomes a 10+guild versus 1 competition as everyone that signs basically has a vested interest in keeping the Overseers protected

[Argh]

Originally Posted by Ella`Ella [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I understand the language of this Non-Aggression agreement, however it doesn't seem very robust. What I mean is that, by the terms set forward, if I were to sign TMO's name to this and we did break the OoA agreement, we would be punished. However, if I refuse to sign our name to it and then go on to kill the OoA's, there would be no penalty. I would rather abide by the agreement in good faith and reserve the latitude to engage the OoA's if I felt necessary and not fall subject to disciplinary action, than sign our name to it and forgo that same notion.

This agreement doesn't become binding until TMO and IB sign. A lack of your signature means that everyone else who has signed can continue to kill OoA's without penalty as well.

Originally Posted by Ella`Ella [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That being said, if the GM's or whichever power-at-be can enforce this, if a protective agreement of Overseers were to come to light (GM Enforced) and Noble went to join the Class-R/Class-C/FFA cycle, I will (without reservation) sign TMO to that extent.

If this agreement were expanded to include an agreement for treating Noble spawns as a C/R/FFA cycle you would sign?

I don't see us being able to get it changed in an official capacity (getting it included on raid.php) as that would require some additional work for Rogean and doing so may be outside of the scope of this agreement but I do not foresee any issue with all Class-R guilds agreeing to treat Noble spawns like this.

[Komodon]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So essentially since class R didn't force IB to play by the rules Tmo wants, Tmo is going to shit down all of our throats in response. New Tmo, old Tmo, it's all Tmo to us at the end of the day.

Actually, no.

Not that I would expect you to see past your jaded hatred or desire to secure an uncontested Noble for Asgard there. I mean who cares about TMO's best interests in the event if conflicts with your own, right?

For the record though, you of all people here have the most unrestricted access to me through our vent. If you actually want to legitimately debate this beyond your tendency to stick to one liner type pot shots, you know how to find me.

[wycca]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So essentially since class R didn't force IB to play by the rules Tmo wants, Tmo is going to shit down all of our throats in response. New Tmo, old Tmo, it's all Tmo to us at the end of the day.

I think you're wrong. TMO has concerns about the proposed agreement. They've come to the table, since the leadership change, quite often about a number of things. I can attest to that fact personally - they re-arranged their sky raid times and kill order for us. There was no other reason to do so other than being good neighbors - I know it had to inconvenience their own sky raiders majorly, but they did it anyways. They've also been willing to talk about Efreeti agreements and have also been reasonable, and in fact, relatively generous at times in the past at least whenever people have taken the opportunity to reach out.

I've only ever talked for any length of time to 4 TMO members, ever - two of which are/were officers and the conversation has always been focused around PoSky. I just go by what my own interactions indicate, and this is how I see it. The amount of anti-TMO hate is sometimes astounding and often seems based on things I find silly. Every guild on this server probably has the following goals when it comes to guild relations - to be treated with respect, not be the target of threats from others, and to respond if someone attacks them publicly. I don't have the burden of old TMO's legacy influencing my views towards them, because I've never seen it. I have, however, in the last 3 months, gone to talk to them in a reasonable manner, not threatened them when there are mix-ups, and avoided any stupidity in RNF. Generally the idea is to have a conversation like adults and not blow your top. Try it sometime, even with people you have a problem with, you might be surprised at the results. I know I was (given what I'd heard), and I know Argh has been as he's talked to them...and as he's talked to other guilds that one wouldn't expect to be civil, as he's worked on this OoA agreement.

Despite the torch & pitchfork view that people seem to have on here, TMO didn't break the OoA NAP - IB did, and TMO didn't kill additional OoA's in the interm creating an even more tense environment - Taken did. They have their concerns, they stated their desires - just because they don't match up with yours doesn't mean they are nefarious. When everyone's position aligns, we will have an agreement. Until then, we simply do not, there is no need for yelling and insults. The only guild who hasn't spoken here (to my knowledge), is IB - and they're the ones who broke it in the first place. We're all being incredibly optimistic and silly in attacking TMO if the key player, the one who broke the first agreement, isn't coming to the table.

[Pint]

Originally Posted by Komodon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, no.

Not that I would expect you to see past your jaded hatred or desire to secure an uncontested Noble for Asgard there. I mean who cares about TMO's best interests in the event if conflicts with your own, right?

For the record though, you of all people here have the most unrestricted access to me through our vent. If you actually want to legitimately debate this beyond your tendency to stick to one liner type pot shots, you know how to find me.

We have discussed this and your posts here reflect that convo strongly..

Originally Posted by Komodon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Although i guess now we can extend the autofire issue beyond the "not class R's problem" stance you took with me last time we spoke, and potentially make it a weekly one for everybody. Not just TMO's in VP.

Happy Hunting/Clicking.

This literally sums up how our convo went/ended and Im assuming that when you say 'you' you are referencing me, unless you had the same conversation with other class R members and ended in the same place.. big surprise. You were confused then as to why class R didn't seem all that interested in helping you strong arm IB, your posts here outright say that since you and IB can't come to terms then the rest of us will be forced to play fte with the two of you. The noble agreement can eliminate the need for anyone to have to auto fire on these encounters, it doesn't solve y'alls vp issue but it does help reduce auto fire for the noble issue, it's progress, why stall it? And fuck yea Asgard wants a few easy dojorns, we are not at all ashamed to admit that. You guys can key mash for 16 hrs to preserve whatever integrity y'all think y'all are preserving but to me and I'm assuming others y'alls desire to keep this activity alive isn't an example of integrity, it's an example of aspergers.

[Pint]

Originally Posted by wycca [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you're wrong..

Thats alright with me, you make plenty of good points in your post about working with others and typically when we do attempt to work with tmo it works out well for us. However, this thread is literally the new OoA non-aggression agreement thread, it had nothing to do with fte or autofire until tmo came in here and posted that they would not be participating and now the thread is an autofire issue. If you cannot see that tmo is using the OoA situation to force class R into taking a stronger stance against IB then Im not sure what to do for you, to me it seems very blatant but then again as I said above I have already had these conversations with Mazam.

This isnt going to look good, but if it really comes down to 16 hours of keyboard mashing or simply using a 3rd party program then I will take the 3rd party program all day long. I wouldnt wish 16 hours on jav spamming on my worst enemy, hell I wouldnt even wish that fate on tmo.

[Komodon]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isnt going to look good, but if it really comes down to 16 hours of keyboard mashing or simply using a 3rd party program then I will take the 3rd party program all day long. I wouldnt wish 16 hours on jav spamming on my worst enemy, hell I wouldnt even wish that fate on tmo.

Actually, this is what best sums up the only conversation we had on the matter. Well, that and little banter revolving around your "TMO scum" outlook you are going to have towards my guild anyway and regardless of the decision we made here.

The "you" there was directed at Chest, and yes i had the "let's try and do away with autofire all together" talk with various other class R guilds. Erati and i even seemed to more or less be on the same exact page on the matter when we spoke (which of course was before Catherin got caught, and he naturally went on the soften his stated stance some here. Still view him as one of the good guys though).
The base claim i was coming to you in direct hopes you would "strong arm" IB is kinda humorous though. For starters, i already expected you not to care for reasons already stated in this thread. Beyond that, and to be perfectly blunt, i'd have an even harder time seeing Hoku/Getsome even hearing you out in the event you were to try [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

I posted what i did there to once again stress that whether it's now or latter, autofire use is everybody's problem (not just TMO's). Just like i was well before the OOA agreement was broken. If this just so happens to serve as a reminder to that, so be it. I do admit i was fairly disappointed nobody seemed to see that though, and that your consistently jaded attitude towards our guild certainly isn't helping your case to convince us in the upside of getting 1/10 of the Noble cycle kills that we used to.

(Edit. Somebody took offense i spelled a name wrong, so i fixed it)