Let's talk CLASS BALANCE

[Akim]

I liked playing my sk, war, paladin, and now enjoy my ranger. I didn't like my rogue much. Warrior was bland back then scraping for yaks when I played it. Monk feels too easy almost.

"However, I eventually decided that it wasn't the role (buffing/debuffing/healing) I wanted to play in the game. "
Been there.

[Doors]

The only thing I'll agree with is that clerics being the only viable healer for kunark 50+ groups, raids etc is kind of lame. It limits your options significantly and makes forming groups harder.

I think if any modification was going to be made, it should be made to shaman and druid heals so anyone who wanted to play something other than a cleric/warrior/enchanter on p99 didn't get shit on just because they weren't as useful.

[mwatt]

Wow. A lot of work to come up with suggestions that simply will not be implemented. This server is intended to provide the classic EQ experience, with both its beauty and its warts.

[Kika Maslyaka]

classic class balance sucks...
eq1 class balance sucks in general...
welcome to P99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Volsic]

No. You're dumb.

[Danth]

The problem with healing isn't that Druids and Shamans suck (though perhaps their heals don't scale as much as they should), but rather that Clerics are too good at it. This has the additional result, according to standard EQ class design, of the Cleric being pretty terrible for any job *except* healing, which results in a mandatory class that's pretty crummy outside its area of expertise.

The Warrior suffers the same issue--it dominates its raid main tank role, yet it's rubbish for everything else. Rogues have a little more flexibility thanks to hide/sneak, but not much, and are mostly sub-par for anything except sustained damage dealing.

Most modern MMORPG's have consequently eliminated the notion of the "pure" class that can only do a single job. It's just too inflexible. In the long run, the hybrids won out. It's easy to see why. Remove the 'pure' classes, and EQ's remaining classes are pretty well balanced within their roles. Shadow Knights and Paladins are pretty similar as tanks; Druids and Shamans are both about equal as healers (albeit with vastly different secondary functions), and most the remaining damage-dealers are pretty close, too. Exceptions exist of course--this post is strictly general--but overall the problem classes in EQ are and have always been the 'pure' classes.

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As far as Project 1999 is concerned, everyone here should be aware of EQ's historical flaws. We have the benefit of hindsight. Class balance problems as they pertain to P1999 therefore take on a different meaning. The phrase, as used here, refers to situations where some class's ability is not replicated correctly, to either advantageous or detrimental effect on the class in question relative to its historic performance.

Danth

[aubie]

EQ is fair, but what most people don't understand is that "fair" does not mean "equal". Decide what you want to do, and pick the class that will come closest to accomplishing that. The problem occurs when you pick the class you want, and then are dissatisfied with what the class can do. If this project is to survive, the devs will not kowtow to the masses. There exist games that do what you wish...search them out.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wow. A lot of work to come up with suggestions that simply will not be implemented. This server is intended to provide the classic EQ experience, with both its beauty and its warts.

The "classic EQ experience" is something that was ever-changing. Most everyone agrees that everything pre-Luclin is considered "classic EQ". But at what point within that spectrum should THIS game, p1999, be defined? It is a very important question. Rogues were complete shit at one point in classic. Paladins, Shadowknights, and Rangers were also shit for a very long time after Kunark came out and didn't get buffed until well after Velious.

I'm not sure exactly what balances are in place in the game right now, but I'm assuming that Rogues do in fact have "Evade" and the the Hybrid classes have the post-buff stats from the Velious era at levels 50+.

Originally Posted by Doors [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only thing I'll agree with is that clerics being the only viable healer for kunark 50+ groups, raids etc is kind of lame. It limits your options significantly and makes forming groups harder.

I think if any modification was going to be made, it should be made to shaman and druid heals so anyone who wanted to play something other than a cleric/warrior/enchanter on p99 didn't get shit on just because they weren't as useful.

That's more than the "only thing you agree with" if you also feel that every class shouldn't be shit on when it comes to finding groups. After Kunark came out, the classes that were viable for groups, in addition to the Holy Trinity you just mentioned, were Shaman, Bards, Monks, and (at Level 55, with dual backstab) Rogues. Some time after Velious came out, Shadowknights, Paladins, and Rangers also got buffed and became viable at that point.

But that still meant Magicians, Necromancers, Wizards (for exp groups), and especially Druids were not desired very much.

A friend of mine played Everquest with both of this parents - they played 6 characters altogether and were able to do much of the content in the game without ever participating with a guild. Their setup was Warrior, Monk, Cleric, Shaman, Enchanter, and Wizard (only because they needed a teleport character and Wizards were at least better than Druids). They would routinely laugh at Guilds who would wipe against content that those 6 could handle themselves. Specific classes very much had a monopoly on the game and it became very unfun to play the other classes.

[garyogburn]

Gonna have to disagree with shaman pets being OP. Sure, they provide free damage, but the 55 pet (the last pet we get on this server) Is hardly better than the 49 pet, and will do about half the damage of the 50s mage/necro pets.

Shaman pets allow shamans the choice to use slow while soloing. Given two weapons they do some damage, but soloing is very slow, especially with kunark mobs. Our buffs make them surprisingly resilient, but hell, I can tank mobs that are slowed, too.

But heres a question: how much does Torpor change the healing game for shamans?

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by aubie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EQ is fair, but what most people don't understand is that "fair" does not mean "equal". Decide what you want to do, and pick the class that will come closest to accomplishing that. The problem occurs when you pick the class you want, and then are dissatisfied with what the class can do. If this project is to survive, the devs will not kowtow to the masses. There exist games that do what you wish...search them out.

It's not about "kowtowing to the masses" - it's about seeing original Everquest through as it was supposed to be. Updates were made to the game CONSTANTLY. When the game first came out pets were deemed too powerful (especially Necromancer pets because they could dual wield and, at the time, weapons with low delay also improved their base attack speed) and they were subsequently nerfed. Rogues were deemed too shitty and they were subsequently buffed. Lots of items in the game were modified. Etc, etc.

When Kunark came about, class balance become completely lopsided because the developers were focusing on trying to create new content in order to make more MONEY. They were not focusing as much on how the changes introduced with Kunark completely messed up the game they had originally created. Don't get me wrong, I actually love the content in Kunark, but that expansion very much screwed up the game in many ways.

Now that we DO have control over how to balance the game, we are able to fix the problems that were not taken care of before. People should be happy for changes that shape the best possible kind of classic EQ experience. Again, Everquest was always changing. There's no point in trying to say "that's not classic EQ?!?!" - such a statement does not have reasoning behind it. Any opinion should be backed with reasoning as to WHY a specific change would negatively hinder the game or why a specific change would BENEFIT the game.

I'm not trying to implement the removal of corpse runs, or the addition of in-game maps, or something retarded like that. What I'm trying to do here is offer my expertise as to how we can create the best EQ possible.

Just look at other threads here: the developers are openly welcoming ideas as to how something like Plane of Knowledge, which was by far the worst thing to ever happen to the game, could actually now be incorporated into this version of the game such that it is simply a very special and hard-to-reach area for high level players only. It's great to see that there is freedom with regards to ideas being considered. Personally, I think Plane of Knowledge is complete shit from a design standpoint (the zone should look far more mystical than it actually does) and should never be in the game. There's simply no point to that zone at all.