Paladin stats & race

[DMN]

At the end of the day it's not going to make much difference but I'd personally never put any points into wisdom for a paladin. A slightly higher mana pool means very little in typical grouping/soloing/raiding situations.

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At the end of the day it's not going to make much difference but I'd personally never put any points into wisdom for a paladin. A slightly higher mana pool means very little in typical grouping/soloing/raiding situations.

Absolutely - it doesn't matter too much where you stat allocations truly go.

But for totality of efficiency as a class a wisdom/mana > hp/ac build has more potential than a HP/AC build for a Paladin.

People think/believe that Paladin's are tanking these overtly hardcore mobs in EQ -they simply are not, and AC is broken on this server. So the difference between a 1100AC 4000 HP 3000 mana Paladin and a 1400AC 4500HP 2000mana Paladin is very little in terms of raw tanking capacity for what a Paladin needs to achieve, however the capacity to pump out more CC/Heals/Stuns than the 1400AC 4500hp Paladin is where a mana/wisdom build wins hands down ( and if you're playing your Paladin properly ).

You can antidotally specify specific situations where having high AC/HP is better, and there will be situations, but it's 0.003% of the time you're in game, so why handicap yourself for the other 99.997% of the game.

If all you do is cast FoL on mobs and occasionally cast Divine Strength to buff your group then it doesn't matter what build you have, this is true, and factual.... for those of us who are a little more intuitive, and participative of what we do in our groups and want to CC/buff/off heal/stun (stunning mobs alone mitigate dmg more than having 300 extra AC will ever do for 95 mana you can stop a mob from hitting you for 10 seconds) then building a larger mana pool is 100% the way to go.

The other mis-conception that is out there and quite prevalent in this thread is if you build towards mana/wisdom you handicap your capacity as a tank, which is utterly incorrect. Once hybrids reach a certain point in AC the returns are negligible ( around 1200AC ) and wearing full HoT and decent quest gear etc. and buffed you're going to be @ or near this anyhow.

Again I think people just play Paladins and Shadowknights as lazy group warriors and don't put much thought in to how/what they do - but that's the beauty of these classes, aslong as you know how to keep agro ( which is very easy ) then you are deemed to have achieved your job.
Argue all you want about HP/AC for the 3 times in your life you will tank HoT mobs when a Warrior isn't around - but the other 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000 mobs you will kill in your life don't need that HP/AC

[DMN]

But the ability to spam spells is almost always going to be constrained by your regeneration rate not your mana pool.

[Raev]

AC was broken on this server for years, but it was fixed around the time Velious came out. I should update the guide! My warrior is geared for AC (1400, which isn't soooo far from the raiding warrior mains) at the cost of HPs (5570 w/out Divine Strength, which is very average) and when parsing it is noticeable in all zones. Sakuragi can handle the spore king camp with a single cleric and no slow. Icy Servants are much more manageable when they virtually never hit for max. Liia and I duoed Xenevorash straight up WAR/CLR many times rather than cheesing him with the guards. You can even see a forum post where Zarza showed that 1AC:2-3HP for enchanters. Do not underestimate the power of AC!

Knights really are far superior to Warriors in Temple of Veeshan for most drakes and all wurms; people just aren't used to playing to their strengths, i.e. instant tash and putting Turgur's in the first slot and casting it every 6s with a clicky. Add in all of Kunark and Knights should be raid tanking decently often now, where AC/HP are more important than mana pool.

I can definitely see a bigger mana pool being relevant while duo/trio or so though when things go wrong. The question I guess is whether it's more important to have steady efficiency in the form of low average hits and big cheals or more ammunition when Murphy's law strikes. I guess it depends on the group. That low AC might prevent the Cleric from falling asleep!

[Danth]

Originally Posted by White_knight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People think/believe that Paladin's are tanking these overtly hardcore mobs in EQ -they simply are not, and AC is broken on this server.

I don't know why you keep parroting this, but you're dead wrong. Post-velious parsing on P99-blue has repeatedly demonstrated that AC works fine--well enough that there's some debate as to whether we even have a soft-cap here. If you keep spewing incorrect info henceforth, I'll decide that instead of being merely mistaken that you're either trolling or lying. It's an internet forum, not prison, and there's no shame or weakness in admitting you're mistaken about something.


Danth

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

AC was broken on this server for years, but it was fixed around the time Velious came out. I should update the guide! My warrior is geared for AC (1400, which isn't soooo far from the raiding warrior mains) at the cost of HPs (5570 w/out Divine Strength, which is very average) and when parsing it is noticeable in all zones. Sakuragi can handle the spore king camp with a single cleric and no slow. Icy Servants are much more manageable when they virtually never hit for max. Liia and I duoed Xenevorash straight up WAR/CLR many times rather than cheesing him with the guards. You can even see a forum post where Zarza showed that 1AC:2-3HP for enchanters. Do not underestimate the power of AC!

Knights really are far superior to Warriors in Temple of Veeshan for most drakes and all wurms; people just aren't used to playing to their strengths, i.e. instant tash and putting Turgur's in the first slot and casting it every 6s with a clicky. Add in all of Kunark and Knights should be raid tanking decently often now, where AC/HP are more important than mana pool.

I can definitely see a bigger mana pool being relevant while duo/trio or so though when things go wrong. The question I guess is whether it's more important to have steady efficiency in the form of low average hits and big cheals or more ammunition when Murphy's law strikes. I guess it depends on the group. That low AC might prevent the Cleric from falling asleep!

Effectively this the whole point of a mana/wisdom build over others.

The concept that you are going to be a weak tank because you prioritize mana is just ill informed. For most of us players a HoT set will be the main focus of our gearing and probably the most we will ever achieve as our end game gearing. The HoT set alone will give a Paladin enough power to tank the mobs it has a capacity to tank.

So why bring a tank that has far beyond the defensive capacities needed in a group situation when you can roll up with 1000 extra mana figuratively speaking and be-able to heal more/stun more in bad situations (which will happen far more than the occasional need for a few extra 100hp for CHs that get missed timed ).

When mobs are hitting for 500-600s sure, 1400 AC should be a more effective, no one can debate that, but when you're grinding groups and mobs are hitting for 150s that effectiveness is far diminished. Wearing a HoT set and built towards wisdom/mana spec you're probably still sporting 1200 AC, besides a few SPECIFIC group locations a hybrid tank doesn't need anymore than that.


Case Example:


Over the course of a fight a paladin's get hit 40 times for max hit every time:


1400AC Paladin
vrs 150 max hit mobs: mitigates max hit down to 135 = 135x40 = 5400 damage recieved
vrs 600 max hit mobs: mitigates max hit down to 500 = 20000 damage recieved


1200AC Paladin
vrs 150 max hit mobs: mitigates max hit down to 145 therefore 145x40 = 5800 damage received
vrs 600 max hit mobs: mitigates max hit down to 580 = 23200 damage recieved


So congratulations you saved your healer 400pts of extra healing on a conventional mob in this extreme case of MAX hitting everytime.
If you're in a group with a cleric who is CHing you, you will NEVER meet the effective heal of a ch (7500) as a hybrid on this server, so if a cleric is CHing you that 400pt deficient is negligible.

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know why you keep parroting this, but you're dead wrong. Post-velious parsing on P99-blue has repeatedly demonstrated that AC works fine--well enough that there's some debate as to whether we even have a soft-cap here. If you keep spewing incorrect info henceforth, I'll decide that instead of being merely mistaken that you're either trolling or lying. It's an internet forum, not prison, and there's no shame or weakness in admitting you're mistaken about something.


Danth

Danth you're a well respected member of this community, but you've always argued against mana/wisdom/int - I know this much as I've seen you post around.
This isn't trolling, this is just people who understand their class better than you and have come to conclusions that differ from what is conventionally known.

If you can't grasp the concept that's been explained here, don't go throwing the this is just "trolling" comment around.
This sort of debate has gone on for years.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by White_knight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Danth you're a well respected member of this community, but you've always argued against mana/wisdom/int - I know this much as I've seen you post around.
This isn't trolling, this is just people who understand their class better than you and have come to conclusions that differ from what is conventionally known.

If you can't grasp the concept that's been explained here, don't go throwing the this is just "trolling" comment around.
This sort of debate has gone on for years.

My latter post wasn't arguing against your basic line of discussion, only your claim that AC doesn't work here (ie, your "AC is broken" claim). Fair enough?

In my earlier post, I agreed that while your style of gearing wouldn't work for my own needs or purposes, it can indeed work decently for a fair portion of the community.

Danth

[Snaggles]

I get going the counterculture path. It’s fun to be an underdog and sometimes a choice (for its inherent flaws) can help you get out on top proving the critics wrong. I was a shockadin in WoW LONG after they sucked.

I’m curious the other and even have considered it but have never thought, not even once, my main problem was a shallow mana pool. Usually it’s been a lack of 1k+ unbuffed hit points and occasionally not enough charisma for safe lull pulling.

Do you do have to realize if you are bucking current logic to what tanks do and how they should prioritize gear...so it’s gonna generate some resistance. I have crap gear and most my cash is from hill giants and fine steel sales. Still, I’m trying for the common logic path, taking hits as well and plentiful as possible.

I certainly wouldn’t go so far to believe ac/hp prioritizing players lazy, ignorant, or trolls. At the very least I wouldn’t literally put that in writing.

Edit: I have 1500 mana with crappy gear at level 59. That’s two less Cel heals which is a lot of hit points. If all I’m doing is FoL and level 30 stunning though. I can still maintain 2/3’rds of my blue bar. That’s enough “oh sht” casting to make a difference and not nearly enough to save a team/raid. It’s four Cel’s but the 18 sec recast clips the Superman cape. If I could cast two more that would be cool but it’s only useful if we are waiting 5 mins between the next spawn.

[Ennewi]

It's fair to say that since Warriors are the tank for endgame Velious raid content, knights should at least diversify rather than attempt to compensate for where they are lacking in comparison--no amount of gear will make up for not having defensive discipline. When raiding such content, knights have little choice but to downshift into more supportive roles, sometimes ramp-tanking and sometimes off-tanking adds but mostly just swinging at the current target and serving as speed bumps/spike strips if and when the raid starts wiping and the Clerics are camping, counting down the seconds. But even so, there are exceptions in Velious that extend beyond group content for hybrids--the Ring War, Halls of Testing, and Kael Arena all come to mind.

I will, however, own that my Paladin has incorporated more and more wisdom/mana gear for raids because of those higher level heals. Neither HP or AC are needed as a tertiary healer, so your argument has merit there but, if bag space allows, wisdom items can be mixed in with charisma gear for such times. But outside of raids, having a larger mana pool hasn't really come into play (yet); how quickly that pool is being replenished though has dictated the rate in which I cast and who receives what buffs/heals and whether I will bother to CC. Thankfully, Norrath is currently the equivalent of America in the 80s, having more crack and more access to crack now than ever before. C1/C2, GoB, Cassindra's/Cantata, and PotG, along with Flowing Thoughts.

It's important to remember that hybrids are, or at least were intended to be, two-thirds warrior and one-third priest/purecaster--a distinction that will be more pronounced once their skill tables are adjusted. Granted, casters do have more versatility than melee classes which factors in when examining knights as a whole, but knights don't necessarily have the most mana-efficient spells either.

Imagine if each of the hybrid classes had a second option from the very start to be two-thirds caster instead of two-thirds warrior. Having more capabilities with magic, the argument would then be that players ought to focus on wisdom or intelligence. But being that knights are two-thirds warrior, players are more inclined to place their points into stamina just because. Personally, I also don't think those 20 starting points are terribly important, though they can help even out certain racial deficiencies.

As for AC, it is markedly better than years ago and I would even go so far as to say that it's more important than Stamina or Wisdom, at least in the traditional group role that knights frequently find themselves in.