Classic mechanic discussion: fast weapon/white damage aggro

[Nirgon]

Riddle me this.

I see threads of warriors and a few others who I have every reason to believe know their classic EQ citing things in line with what I'm going to lay out here.

I've also done my share of dps in groups on both p99 servers as both melee, caster and enchanter, with tanks using different weapons and even tanking myself.

Something is off with "white" aggro hits, and I think I might know the cause (discussion part inc).

Back in the day, I recall talking to some melees regarding fast weapons.

Scenario 1:
I asked a ranger why he doesn't use his revulantat whip. Response: "too much aggro". Notice he didn't see too much damage, but too much aggro.

Scenario 2:
Revultant whip drops, ranger complains about flux bladed axe / whip "sucking" as their planar weapons, citing "too much aggro for too little damage"

Scenario 3:
Warrior who continues to use his efreeti standard (even to tank raid mobs! Ooga of RZ) until it is nerfed to off hand only.

My belief (after discussion with Kringe in team speak) is that every single landed hit from a weapon, in addition to the damage it did, had a base amount of hate for a scored hit.

Break down of what I think is going on now (procs aside):
Total threat = total damage done (there abouts)

Break down of what I think should be happening:
Total threat = total damage done, but for each hit scored, a flat amount of threat needs to land.

ie:
500 hits for total of 500 threat damage, PLUS another 250 or so threat at half a point (making up #'s here btw) for each hit scored.

Our warriors in classic, not because they were clueless, I saw using spined dragon claws and a blood fire to tank over dual yaks (yes they had both). The spined dragon claws are 3 less delay than a yak and 2 more damage. Blood fire, 3 more damage, same delay and ~31 less threat per proc. I also believe the blood fire on classic had a much higher proc rate than the yak, but could be wrong here. These warriors weren't clueless, knew how much threat stuns caused, tested all kinds of shit regularly etc. The rangers in question (notably Webe from RZ), similarly, tried their revultant whips during classic and bagged or destroyed them according to their comments I recall above.

My feels overall are that white damage and "per hit" damage on threat are off a bit here (its classic enough for me to be happy, just getting granular now and certain weps are being ignored). Others may add their 2 cents and of course research must be done!

[Hamahakki]

What you posted here is pretty much exactly how I remember melee aggro working in classic. Slow weapons definitely generated less threat than fast ones, even if the damage dealt was equal.

Another non-classic melee bug here: on live, if you were sitting down, an entire round of melee attacks would hit for max damage. On p1999, it hits as if you were standing.

[Joroz]

Seems more how I remember it also... I mean take the mallet strategy here... its has such a huge impact on tanks grabbing agro, its pretty much standard raiding gear here where as on live it had almost no value cause it didn't do shit.

[JayN]

Originally Posted by Joroz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems more how I remember it also... I mean take the mallet strategy here... its has such a huge impact on tanks grabbing agro, its pretty much standard raiding gear here where as on live it had almost no value cause it didn't do shit.

This is an untrue statement, also theya re not the only thing used for aggro purposes

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Hamahakki [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Another non-classic melee bug here: on live, if you were sitting down, an entire round of melee attacks would hit for max damage. On p1999, it hits as if you were standing.

Yes, should always take full max damage on all rounds sitting with no chance of a miss. Noticed it but forgot to bring it up.

That can pretty much get a bug thread made about it immediately.

Moving on!

[Joroz]

Originally Posted by JayN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is an untrue statement, also theya re not the only thing used for aggro purposes

prove it... show me a guild that required everyone to have a mallet for raids. it didn't happen, because mallets were used like other spells or arrows/throwing shit for tagging, not locking agro so an entire raid can blast away without having to worry about the mob turning. Tanks always had a period of agro building up front on raid mobs... sort of how we still kind of wait on engage calls on lesser shit here. It was never 5 clicks and all out assault till mob dead with no risk.

[Splorf22]

It's classic here Nirgon. The aggro of a 1H hit is precisely damage+damage bonus. So lets do some math:

Efreeti Standard 3/10; 3+11 = 14 aggro/swing, 14/10 = 1.40 'hate' ratio
Revultant whip 5/14; 5+11 = 16 aggro/swing, 16/14 = 1.14 'hate' ratio
Blade of Strategy: 14/24: 14+11 = 25 aggro/swing, 25/24 = 1.04 'hate' ratio
Katana of Endurance: 18/30: 18+11 = 29 aggro/swing, 29/30 = 0.97 'hate' ratio

So fast weapons have relatively more threat per damage even when their ratio is lower. Its working as intended.

Now why 2H has nerfed swing hate, I have no idea.

[JayN]

Originally Posted by Joroz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

prove it... show me a guild that required everyone to have a mallet for raids. it didn't happen, because mallets were used like other spells or arrows/throwing shit for tagging, not locking agro so an entire raid can blast away without having to worry about the mob turning. Tanks always had a period of agro building up front on raid mobs... sort of how we still kind of wait on engage calls on lesser shit here. It was never 5 clicks and all out assault till mob dead with no risk.

uh ya they did espcially for 32k mobs that you pop in 30 seconds or less, why is being smart and using good tactics a bad idea..

building agro for tanks you call it; was Velious when things had well over 32k hp (pretty much just warriors).

hybrids had great agro with their spells, not needing bladestopper, puppet strings or some other form of huge threat generation.

What guild requires you to have one to raid, your so full of shit its coming out your nose and ears.

[Joroz]

Originally Posted by JayN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

why is being smart and using good tactics a bad idea..

its not

Originally Posted by JayN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What guild requires you to have one to raid, your so full of shit its coming out your nose and ears.

nice deflection & attack.... still no proof provided.

[Nirgon]

So Splorf.. on a long enough parse you think spined claw + bloodfire will overtake dual yaks eh? I highly doubt it!

Get the midnight mallet stuff outta here, make yo own thread.