Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[kjs86z]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It doesn't even matter if there is no evidence.

typical liberal mentality

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Charm was just a gimmick during Vanilla. People Charming the Kelethin guards to kill the POD was about all it was used for!

[Mushman]

[QUOTE=sentinel;3035015]two sides are fighting.

1. Charm mechanics are not classic! We know this bc of anecdotal evidence! (and we don't like it)

2. Charm mechanics are classic! We know this bc of anecdotal evidence! (and we like it)

One group wants a better and more classic experience. The other group wants to have charm centric easy mode enabled for selfish reasons.

Some might honestly believe that the data is accurate and have no self interest in mind but... I think most of the loud voices saying, "charm is perfectly classic, go away!" are most concerned with being able to lock down lots of content and pixels with very little man power on the back of game trivializing charm.

[sentinel]

Well yeah, Chanter is the #1 most played class on Green/Teal. Of course there will be a strong resistance to any negative change to charm.

I just find it interesting how certain some folks are that the current mechanics are classic. None of us know, it is a best guess done by the p99 admins. That's all it is.

[bubur]

Originally Posted by sentinel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well yeah, Chanter is the #1 most played class on Green/Teal. Of course there will be a strong resistance to any negative change to charm.

I just find it interesting how certain some folks are that the current mechanics are classic. None of us know, it is a best guess done by the p99 admins. That's all it is.

p sure its actually druids but whatever. who cares about facts?

the problem im having with this "debate" is people are not reading any nuance in these anecdotes or arguments. what I am actually starting to believe is that charm worked *almost* the same, but there were small changes that made a huge difference in people's willingness to charm

for example: if invis doesnt break charm on classic - what do you do to reliably break charm? this doesn't make the strat infeasible, but it's a lot less in the player's control, therefore less people would do it to solo like they do on p99

or: did charm pets eat group xp? or was there a *belief* that charm pets ate group xp - then no one would want you to do it, even if it was actually very efficient. the community would have pressured enc's, who already didn't want to take the risk, to not do it

or: did going linkdead cause your charm pet to go haywire on you and your entire group? people may have been averse to this for a variety of reasons

for these types of nuance, you can do what you can to recreate classic, but what if being invis while having a charm mob allows someone to exploit and single pull out of a camp, like sneak pulling did before the staff nerfed it? people want 100% classic, but people also don't seem to understand that classic was broken as all fuck in so many weird and everquesty ways

you're asking the staff to do the impossible, or maybe the improbable (because the devs are pretty dang good), but they wont prioritize this over existing issues without EVIDENCE. there DOES need to be evidence, because this is not just a simple "Ok, we'll just tune down dmg on charm pets, or make it easier to resist." that kind of unclassic arbitrary change is opening the door to a lot more negative than youd be solving. help out and find some real evidence or go kick rocks

why am i still typing. this will be buried and people will read five words of my wall of text and say "hurr durr enc bad" or "hurr durr enc good"

end this madness

[kul69]

Originally Posted by bubur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

there DOES need to be evidence, because this is not just a simple "Ok, we'll just tune down dmg on charm pets, or make it easier to resist." that kind of unclassic arbitrary change is opening the door to a lot more negative than youd be solving. help out and find some real evidence or go kick rocks

Why is Necro lifetap nerfed then? Why can't pets be given daggers to reduce attack delay? Oh that's right, because it would cause an excessive amount of necro/pet classes to lock down all the content. Same as is happening with Enchanter now.

The whole "needs evidence" argument is pretty damn tired when there are already a dozen non-classic changes implemented specifically to address the same kind of issues we're seeing with Enchanter.

[bubur]

enc charm is not causing content to be locked down excessively imo. which camps are you actually talking about?

i am not familiar with the lifetap change. the daggers are probably a titanium client thing

the 'needs evidence' argument will never be tired as you claim it is. too much hyperbole in your claims for this to be taken seriously. for instance, the "dozens" of changes you mention: a lot of them are probably client issues due to the emu base we're using

[Mushman]

Originally Posted by bubur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

enc charm is not causing content to be locked down excessively imo. which camps are you actually talking about?

i am not familiar with the lifetap change. the daggers are probably a titanium client thing

the 'needs evidence' argument will never be tired as you claim it is. too much hyperbole in your claims for this to be taken seriously. for instance, the "dozens" of changes you mention: a lot of them are probably client issues due to the emu base we're using

Noone knows or will ever know the exact classic formula. If you possibly have non classic data already in use it's absurd to suggest you can't replace it with anything but proven classic values that can never be acquired.

As for your opinion, many disagree. The enchanter offers unmatched CC for camp breaking, and busted strong charm that does top end DPS so it's power and clear potential outweighs that of multiple people and naturally locks down content short handed because of charm.

On my SHM as an example if I join an enchanter for level appropriate content duo we are killing so fast that there is no benefit to inviting anyone else to the "group". Already killing all named in the vicinity and duo XP. This charmquesting is unhealthy and unclassic. It's pretty obvious that charm replaces players.

[Nirgon]

68 pages of flailing

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Wurl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hopefully staff can cut through the noise from pixel-poisoned enchanters in this thread, and they remove the un-classic on-tick charm break bonus from CHA.

The data in this thread suggests charm durations are about right on p99, but that charisma is part of what is getting us there. If they nerf charisma, they'll have to buff charm directly to remain classic, and it will actually be a net buff to enchanters since they'll be charming as well as ever but without needing to gear for charisma instead of just hp, ac, and int.