list system flaw

[winter888]

Originally Posted by Jack N [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the player at the top of the list is unable to hold the camp solo, or is unable to requisition the help necessary to clear it, they should lose their spot.

Give the list #1 two minutes to engage the mob and if they don't, they're cut.

your way is far more STRICT. i think giving the help to the 1st on list is fine ,but there should be some limit. for example ,if the 1st on list is grouping with others on list to kill the PH/named, then there should implement some machenism like when 10 round ph/named passed, the first one should be removed. this give the 2nd 3rd and so on some motive to help 1st.

if the 1st dont want to group with other on list ,he'll be removed after the ph/named poped for designative times.

or make the lowest lvl to enter the list to lvl50. as someone proposed.

[Donkey Hotay]

Originally Posted by Jorgam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Underrated Post right here!

Real life political lessons should be being learned at these camps if people have the sense to recognize what is happening.

Originally Posted by Sporkotron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What?

I'm only guessing at what he meant but the situation we have here is analogous to welfare. A working citizen, in this analogy the player capable of clearing PHs, is unfairly taxed to support others who cannot or will not work. In reality, the productive citizen chooses to accept this yoke because he can still gain benefits in excess of the taxation. In this game however, the analogy results in a different outcome because the capable players cannot accept having to support others in order to gain what they want.

Amusingly, this probably results from the capable players in the game being, in reality, welfare recipients who are unable to function under the same burden that they place upon society.

[Kirrund]

Originally Posted by ZiggyTheMuss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look at this shithead.


Now, if I showed up to a /list camp and there was some stranger just sitting there waiting for me to kill the PH for them because they can't do it themself? I would just leave or log out. I wouldn't care enough to try to wait them out but I certainly wouldn't camp the item for them. Here's another thing too: I would never even consider showing up to a /list camp if I was not capable of soloing it. It would never cross my mind to just go to a /list camp and wait for people to show up and clear it for me. I think that is much more despicable behavior than the people who refuse to help them to keep the list moving.

There is a huge difference from live back in classic and P99 now. The difference is that there is a massive amount of entitlement NOW. Funny since I would think that people would have been more entitled back when they were paying a monthly subscription.

The whining will continue no matter what happens but I would like to see some fair changes made to the list system to cut down on the amount of leeches who think they can just show up and /AFK their way to a legacy item.

So while I sort of agree with you on some parts, like not showing up to a list and being the only one there, afk, and expecting other people to just tag along and do it for you I think the list system currently probably creates less problems than if we didn't have it. The other side of the spectrum is people monopolizing it and also doing whatever they can to bully others off it (which is also currently what has been tried a few times).

But I think you're wrong compared to classic, and I think the word "entitlement" gets thrown around way too often because it's one of the most recent buzzwords everyone likes to use when it comes to describing anyone who wants to promote a sense of working together. The game was designed to be a community game with a heavy sense on helping people out and grouping together. I think it is disingenuous of you to try to argue that in Classic there wasn't a greater sense of community and a greater sense of both generosity and general working together. Yes, there were ninja looters, and there were people who stole guild banks, and there were people who bucked the trend, but from my experience people were more apt to work together and generally try to come to a reasonable solution. I played on two different servers in the 99 and 2000 era, then again shortly for 2001. Note that my definition of "working together" means everyone is contributing, not one person doing all of the work and another person doing nothing.

I think that it is pretty clear that the intent of the list was that people would be grouped and working together, that there would be a permanent group for these items, not that they would all be afk waiting on their time to solo. Instead, this is just what it has been perverted into by people who only care about themselves, because, as always, their time is more important than anyone else's.

If a person shows up to the list at the appropriate level, and is in good faith helping everyone out and making things go faster, they have put in their good faith effort, played nice, been a team player, why shouldn't they also receive some help on the back end when it's their turn? Do you think that their good behavior effort should not be rewarded by the same courtesy and respect? Do you think that's entitlement? Do you think this behavior, of putting in time and effort, and helping other people, is a negative thing? Or would you rather, on the opposite end, just have a list of people soloing something; perhaps the entire game could just be about soloing, and there would be no sense of community at all, because, after all, if you want something you need to get it yourself and not ask for anyone else to help, because they won't. The latter is an extreme, sure, but I think that calling entitlement on players who are in good faith doing their part and helping is also an extreme. The real extreme on that end would be someone sitting there doing absolutely nothing, waiting to loot.

As an addition, I guess to expect this, you would have to expect that everyone is always helping, and always working together and contributing, instead of one asshat holding things hostage and doing absolutely nothing. By the same token, you would have to expect that someone wouldn't just refuse to group in an attempt to try to fuck over the person ahead of them, if perhaps that person is a class that couldn't solo very well, or maybe had trouble sometimes depending on resists or RNG.

Personally, I treat everyone in game that I meet with the most courtesy and respect that I can, and I am more than willing to help out on a lot of things. I do not treat people like total strangers, because this is a small community and you never know when you will make a new friend, a new acquaintance, or something else. It's a 20 year old game after all, and I am here to relive a sense of community and nostalgia and do some things I never got to do. I can respect if that's not the reason you, or someone else plays, but I would think that the least we could expect from each other would be courtesy and kindness. Surely you agree.

I know this is long winded and I wasn't specifically trying to call you out or anything. I think you have been pretty vocal about the list in different threads, and that's great. Like I said, I agree with some of your points, but I wanted to ask you that above question.

When it comes to the rules, a lot of people like to argue about what they can do, instead of what they should do. After all, it is called the Play Nice Policy because that is the intent, not because they just thought up an arbitrary name for a set of rules. Seems obvious, I feel like a hell of a lot of people miss this, intentionally so.

[PabloEdvardo]

Originally Posted by Kirrund [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think that it is pretty clear that the intent of the list was that people would be grouped and working together, that there would be a permanent group for these items, not that they would all be afk waiting on their time to solo. Instead, this is just what it has been perverted into by people who only care about themselves, because, as always, their time is more important than anyone else's.

thank you -- this is a nicely distilled version of what I was saying

[Legidias]

Daily reminder that list system isn't in place for you to get loot, it's to prevent the same 5 neckbeards from holding camp 24/7/31/365 and hoarding the loot, as happened on blue.

[Phaezed-Reality]

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Daily reminder that list system isn't in place for you to get loot, it's to prevent the same 5 neckbeards from holding camp 24/7/31/365 and hoarding the loot, as happened on blue.

please refer to my post with pictures, where i show u the same 5 people are still dominating the camp using the list rules by having a FD class and just clicking the afk checks, they level them to the level cap, cant do shit but stick themselves ahead, they never contribute and they keep rinse repeating.


How many have u tried listing before? and i mean completing a list. just got done with a 26 hour list. had 1 of these "issyas" i had to take care of before i got #1.


edit: these people have clerics set up at the list spots, waiting for the grp to wipe, if they die they rez themselves back and noone else. you can tell exactly who it is if you watch long enough, its the same cleric but different FD classes. its actually really disgusting. Any staff member that sits at guise longer than 3 hours/any wipe. will see what goes on. i sat there 4 days /unlisted checking to see if it was still going on. yup it is.

[Kirrund]

Originally Posted by Phaezed-Reality [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

please refer to my post with pictures, where i show u the same 5 people are still dominating the camp using the list rules by having a FD class and just clicking the afk checks, they level them to the level cap, cant do shit but stick themselves ahead, they never contribute and they keep rinse repeating.


How many have u tried listing before? and i mean completing a list. just got done with a 26 hour list. had 1 of these "issyas" i had to take care of before i got #1.


edit: these people have clerics set up at the list spots, waiting for the grp to wipe, if they die they rez themselves back and noone else. you can tell exactly who it is if you watch long enough, its the same cleric but different FD classes. its actually really disgusting. Any staff member that sits at guise longer than 3 hours/any wipe. will see what goes on. i sat there 4 days /unlisted checking to see if it was still going on. yup it is.

These people should be banned. If the list system is in place to reduce CSR load, banning scummy players like this will save wayyy more CSR/guide time in the long run from the problems they will undoubtedly cause.

[Phaezed-Reality]

Originally Posted by Kirrund [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These people should be banned. If the list system is in place to reduce CSR load, banning scummy players like this will save wayyy more CSR/guide time in the long run from the problems they will undoubtedly cause.

been asking to be a staff member for 10 years.

[Grakken]

Originally Posted by Kirrund [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think that it is pretty clear that the intent of the list was that people would be grouped and working together, that there would be a permanent group for these items, not that they would all be afk waiting on their time to solo.

The intent was to give everyone a chance, and not let a group of neckbeards monopolize it till its gone.

The problem is before the list, this group you speak of would /random for the drop. Everyone getting a shot at it. Now there is an order. I don't feel like I am in a group of adventurers working toward a common goal. I feel like I am farming something for a stranger. If it were 5 minutes I would brush off this frustration and move on with life. But it is 12 hours per drop. I'm not willing to spend 12 hours on a stranger. That's a rational position. I also don't expect a stranger to spend 12 hours serving me.

[Phaezed-Reality]

see the thing is, that same group is still dominating it, by keeping a FD class afk checking and then waiting for the group to all die and then assuming #1 after they cant return to their spawn.

I have no solutions. this is all fucked lol.