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  #21  
Old 05-26-2017, 10:36 AM
Samoht Samoht is offline
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I saw an Ogre Shaman the other day in KC face tank an overpull and basically blue club himself before he got his heal off. He was 0% on my screen. So I've seen FSI be useful one time in my 6 years of playing here. I've seen thousands more instances where extra regen would have been more useful.
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  #22  
Old 05-26-2017, 11:05 AM
Vexenu Vexenu is online now
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The Regen vs. FSI debate is different for SKs than Shaman. With a Shaman, efficiency is a huge part of the class. Stacking regen is a big deal. And that's not to say that regen is worthless on an SK. It definitely isn't. But there are other factors to consider, namely survivability. As an SK you will be tanking or pulling basically 100% of the time. You will be getting hit a lot, and often by multiple mobs. You will invariably find yourself in bad situations where you need to get a FD off immediately or you'll be dead. FSI inarguably helps with those situations.

Regen definitely makes you more efficient, but as an SK your job isn't to be efficient. It's to be the beefiest tank you can be. It's to survive the inevitable nasty situations you get into while pulling. Simply put, it's to stay alive for as long as possible. Regen is great over a long period of time, but in those critical seconds that decide between living and a nasty CR, it's much more important to be able to successfully channel FD or spam lifetaps/skin.

And it's not like an Ogre SK can't regen, either. With Fungi/Regrowth:

Troll/Iksar standing regen at 60: 420 hp per min
Ogre standing regen at 60: 340 hp per min

So from a realistic perspective it's not a question of enormous regen vs. no regen and FSI. It's slightly better regen vs. FSI.

All that being said, regen is still obviously a very good racial. Iksar have a very strong case for being the best min/max SK race due to their excellent combo of racials (regen, AC, not a large race). But Ogre FSI is a really, really strong racial that is not to be underestimated. No amount of gear can ever make up for it. An Ogre can shrink, he can stack his AC and regen with gear and spells, but a non-Ogre can never achieve FSI.
  #23  
Old 05-26-2017, 11:13 AM
Samoht Samoht is offline
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Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You will invariably find yourself in bad situations where you need to get a FD off immediately or you'll be dead. FSI inarguably helps with those situations.
Too bad this is quite literally the only situation where FSI actually comes into play. Any other times, the extra regen is without a doubt superior to FSI.

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Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Regen definitely makes you more efficient, but as an SK your job isn't to be efficient. It's to be the beefiest tank you can be. It's to survive the inevitable nasty situations you get into while pulling. Simply put, it's to stay alive for as long as possible.
If survivability is really what matters the most, then Iksar AC/regen together definitely beats FSI which has the tiniest window of usefulness of all the racial abilities available for an SK.

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Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
With Fungi/Regrowth:

Troll/Iksar standing regen at 60: 420 hp per min
Ogre standing regen at 60: 340 hp per min
Lol @ intentionally skewing the benefit of the regen by adding other sources of regen. Please repost without including outside buffs.
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Last edited by Samoht; 05-26-2017 at 11:16 AM..
  #24  
Old 05-26-2017, 11:33 AM
Vexenu Vexenu is online now
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Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Too bad this is quite literally the only situation where FSI actually comes into play. Any other times, the extra regen is without a doubt superior to FSI.
Those are pretty important situations, though. You can't just gloss over them. It's literally going to save your life when it happens. It's sort of like an insurance policy that pays out big infrequently, where regen is a constant small drip of money in your pocket. Which is better? It depends on your playstyle (solo/duo a lot vs. full groups, pull a lot, like to push the limits and get into dangerous situations, etc...) and what you value most.

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Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
If survivability is really what matters the most, then Iksar AC/regen together definitely beats FSI which has the tiniest window of usefulness of all the racial abilities available for an SK.
This very well may be true. I said as much. But as I also pointed out, regen and AC can be acquired through spells and gear. FSI cannot. Does that mean FSI is unquestionably better? No. But it's an advantage that no other race will ever enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Lol @ intentionally skewing the benefit of the regen by adding other sources of regen. Please repost without including outside buffs.
I did that because those will be the practical regen values most people will actually be playing with at 60 when duoing, pulling or tanking for a group. Saying Troll/Iksar regen 80 more hp per minute is one thing (80 vs. 0 sounds stark), contrasting the actual likely regen numbers (420 vs 340) puts it into better perspective.
  #25  
Old 05-26-2017, 11:47 AM
Samoht Samoht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I did that because those will be the practical regen values most people will actually be playing with at 60 when duoing, pulling or tanking for a group. Saying Troll/Iksar regen 80 more hp per minute is one thing (80 vs. 0 sounds stark), contrasting the actual likely regen numbers (420 vs 340) puts it into better perspective.
But it's a skewed perspective none-the less. Your scenario makes a lot of flawed assumptions like every group has regen or every SK has a fungi. It's just not realistic.
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  #26  
Old 05-26-2017, 04:09 PM
demokatt demokatt is offline
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I picked ogre for solo play, not for stun imunity but for str 140 and sta 127 - thinking I would kill em off faster not needing to regen as much :-)
  #27  
Old 05-26-2017, 06:09 PM
mickmoranis mickmoranis is offline
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Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
This. As an SK, there will be a very small window where FSI will actually be useful (channeling an FD against multiple bashers).
So... you're saying if your not ogre, you're gonna die?

...and without a rez, you wont even need to regen, so the ogre wins again!

the question is, do you make more exp from the expedited Hit-point Regen, than you would if you survived every failed FD from frontal stun over the course of leveling?
  #28  
Old 05-26-2017, 08:37 PM
Razaz Razaz is offline
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The question is if you can stand looking at an ogre or not.
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  #29  
Old 05-26-2017, 09:12 PM
tycohunden tycohunden is offline
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Trolls = Chad. Ogre = Fat loser beta orbiter, able to take stuns, because used to societal rejection, semi retarded. Iksars = Tards, Dark Elves = Poindexter. Erudite = Tard wranglers.
  #30  
Old 05-26-2017, 09:41 PM
Danth Danth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Those are pretty important situations, though. You can't just gloss over them. It's literally going to save your life when it happens.
When's that going to happen? I've been on my human Shadow Knight for 6 years and I can't recollect even a single case where I died but having bash immunity might have saved me. Not even once. I can recall a single, possible (not certain) time where having a couple hundred HP from an Ogre's higher stats might have saved me....although it also might've meant I just would've died 10 seconds later instead. Bash immunity seems great on forum theorycraft but in practice I can't see that it really matters except for people who get annoyed at being bashed now and then.

People overthink the importance of race in this game. Ogre gives a small advantage. Iksar and Troll give a modest advantage. None of them are worth picking if you dislike the way they look because liking your character is the most important attribute.

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