Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You seem to equate "not reading" with "not agreeing with you". I'm sure it's easy to win every argument when you can simply reduce all opposition that way.

And yet ... wasn't it you (in a post made directly to me) who wrote:



I guess the last thing those "other people" will read in this thread ... other than you avoiding addressing my point for (now) fourteen sentences ... is my very reasonable/logical point that:



And I'm ok with that [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have shown you cannot bother to read what people post, and then you mark it as a "victory". Anybody can read this thread and find all the information they could possibly want, with the exception of yourself apparently.

[PatChapp]

Endgame the only difference is stun immunity anyway. Barb shaman do fine

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anybody can read this thread and find all the information they could possibly want

Absolutely! And that's why I gave up trying to argue several pages ago, when the topic changed: everyone was just talking past each other, so I figured there was no point in continuing ... but I was ok with that, because anyone with a brain could still read and follow my arguments up to that point.

But then you felt the need to resurrect your argument on page 18, so now (thanks to you) everyone gets one last chance to re-read one of my central points ... and see your inability to address it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Absolutely! And that's why I gave up trying to argue several pages ago, when the topic changed: everyone was just talking past each other, but that was ok because anyone with a brain could still read and follow my arguments up to that point.

But then you felt the need to resurrect the argument on page 18, so now (thanks to you) everyone gets one last chance to re-read one of my central points, and see your inability to address it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People could have read your points earlier in the thread. Why do you care that you got to copy/paste your incorrect idea that has already been disproven at the end of this thread?

I didn't "resurrect" the argument. This thread was still near the top of the first page. I thought of some useful information, and posted it to help other people out.

You decided to attack me instead of have a discussion in response to that. You are the one being aggressive here, but whenever someone points it out or fights back you cry "why are you insulting me?" It's just silly. The post history is there lol, it isn't like people cannot go back and look.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People could have read your points earlier in the thread. Why do you care that you got to copy/paste your incorrect idea that has already been disproven at the end of this thread?

I didn't "resurrect" the argument. This thread was still near the top of the first page. I thought of some useful information, and posted it to help other people out.

You decided to attack me instead of have a discussion in response to that. You are the one being aggressive here, but whenever someone points it out or fights back you cry "why are you insulting me?" It's just silly. The post history is there lol, it isn't like people cannot go back and look.

You keep talking about people reading for themselves, and yet when they look at the last few pages what will they see? They'll see me making a dispassionate argument, backed up with a reasonable explanation based on my experience playing a Shaman.

They'll also see you not responding with any kind of logic or evidence, but calling me a spoiled child and wasting who knows how many (I've lost count?) sentences ... to say that you can't be bothered to write a few sentences (with logic or evidence).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You keep talking about people reading for themselves, and yet when they look at the last few pages what will they see? They'll see me making a dispassionate argument, backed up with a reasonable explanation based on my experience playing a Shaman.

I'm also confident they'll see you not responding with any kind of logic or evidence, but calling me a spoiled child and wasting who knows how many (I've lost count?) sentences ... to say that you can't be bothered to write a few sentences (with logic or evidence).

Who was it who posted FTFY right after my post (and thus started this whole discussion)? Not sure how that is "logical and dispassionate". It's just snarky and trolly, without any "logic" to explain why you disagree.

You have a very delusional view of yourself if you aren't trolling.

Again, I simply posted some information that was helpful, and you responded with trolling.

[loramin]

Ok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People can go back and read the post history, so I am not sure why you think you are in the right here. The facts are obvious to see. If you were the "logical and dispassionate" arguer you claim to be, you wouldn't type "FTFY" without any logic or reason behind it[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll repost the analysis for readers who actually want to learn and/or have a discussion. I also have a prediction. Loramin will not read it, and proceed to ask the same questions that have already been answered. If he doesn't do that and actually reads/responds to it, then we will have taught Loramin to read. A win/win either way in my book.

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

[loramin]

So after all that it turns out you do want to keep going after all!

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

All true ... and yet it also remains true that a non-raid Shaman will likely spend 95+% of their Shaman career without hitting the cap.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

You can keep repeating "the only reason is" until you're blue in the face, but it's neither evidence nor a logical argument. Although I do agree that a Shaman could save a buff slot as you describe, it's entirely irrelevant to this thread because non-raid Shaman don't hit buff limits either.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

This is a variant of the "stats don't matter argument ... which amuses me because only a few pages ago you were arguing on the other side of that debate:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The funny thing is if you think gear is important, you think stats are important hehe. 25 points into WIS/STA is a lot gear-wise. That on average is at least 3 pieces of gear's worth, assuming it has a higher than average WIS/STA of 8+.

So are starting stats "at least 3 pieces of gears worth" or do they "NOT really help you during the leveling process"? Personally, I'd say both: stats (whether starting or from gear) largely don't matter.

But to the extent they do matter ... having more HP > Mana.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

Again, a variant of the "stats don't matter" argument, and again ... I 100% agree! Clickies (and regen, and FT, and the JBB, and the epic, and ...) all matter more than maximum stats. But again, all you can get from your starting stats are more max HP and more max Mana, and the HP is more valuable.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

Wow, so your best evidence that Mana > HP is that ... you kinda came close to running out of mana ... and also HP ... in an 17+ minute fight (a fight where you exchanged HP and mana about a gazillion times by casting spells). A fight which, I might add, is not something a 1-59 Shaman can do, or even a 60 Shaman without Torpor (and some decent gear too I'd imagine).

In other words, even if Mana > HP in that fight ... it still doesn't change the fact that HP > Mana for the 95+% plus of the Shaman's career before that.

So just to recap, the reasons (multiple) to choose Stamina for your starting stat points over Wisdom are:

• to free up a buff slot if you are a hardcore raider
• to have more HP (which is more valuable than mana) for the vast majority of your Shaman's life, if you are not