First Aggro + 15

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

This is a repost of my earlier proposal, but cleaned up and edited to incorporate suggestions. You can read the original and discussion on it in this thread... http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9927

The proposal consists of only one rule.

First Aggro + 15
==========
The first guild (or non-guild based raid force) to aggro a raid target gets 15 minutes to begin the fight as long as they maintain unbroken chain of aggro for the whole 15 minutes. No other forces may attempt to take aggro or KS from the first raid force unless the first force is unable to reduce the raid target to 95% or less health after 15 minutes or if the guild (or non-guild based raid force) loses aggro at any point. If either of those two conditions is met, then the mob becomes Free For All until the next person from a different raid force aggros. If all remaining live members of the first force who have engaged the target in any way have feigned death, the the aggro chain is considered broken, even if they have DoTs or other spells on the raid target that would cause re-aggro if the FD members were to stand up. In cases where the Raid mob instantly has people from multiple forces on its hate list due to spawning in the midst of multiple players, anyone who pulls aggro who is not from the same raid force as the player who got initial aggro will be considered guilty of KSing unless he or she backs off and allows the force with first aggro to reassert control. The guild who attained first aggro is free to allow the raid mob to kill any players from other guilds who were on the initial hate list from being with aggro range at spawn time, or any who appear on the hate list by trying to help others not from the force with first aggro who were.
==========

EDIT: The tentative definition of "begin the fight" will be: reduce the mob to 95% health or lower. -- Thanks Dawgrin
EDIT: Made language a bit more precise, and added new provision to handle camping "on the spawn point". -- Thanks Astarothel

That's it, that's the whole system right there.

I also have several suggestions to the dev team that I believe should be enacted to help this rule fulfill some of the goals we as a community and they as developers have in regards to the raiding scene on this server. These suggestions are needed to make a significant impact in the nature of the raiding scene on the server above and beyond my rule change. They are the complement that allows my one single rule to work. I will simply list the changes here. A discussion about the reasons for each change will follow in the second, third, and fourth posts of this thread.

1. Raid mobs should have a flat 6 hours added to their base spawn intervals with no variance. EDIT: -- no more variance, reduce camping

2. Raid mobs should have an line of text in /say triggered when they are aggro'd from a clear aggro list state that lists the name of the player who got aggro.

3. The punishments for KSing or Training on a raid target should be made much more severe, and escalate based on the number of previous offenses. I suggest a 30day account and IP ban for the offending party. I have seen other good suggestions ranging for a shorter ban, but for the whole guild, up to disbanding the entire guild and perma-banning the officers. As long as the punishments are severe, the purpose is served.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

The next 3 posts outline the reasoning behind my 3 suggestions to the dev team and an explanation of how they address the main goals of this raid rule. I think it would be useful now to explain what I interpreted those goals to be before continuing.

Goals for the Raid Rule
1. Ensure that raid mobs can span in any time zone
2. Limit the need for developer involvement "babysitting"
3. Promote competition based on skill related to game-play
4. Be compatible with the entrance of new players on the raiding scene
5. Be compatible with the addition of new raid targets to the game

Spawn Variance

The original reason for spawn variance was to make sure that a mob does not exclusively appear in the prime time of one time zone. It is intended to help distribute the mobs around the clock so that all time zones have a chance at getting the mob during their prime time. I think that this is the best usage of the spawn variance. However, the spawn variance that we are using is way too big. We tried to use it to make camping the mobs more difficult. However, as we can all see, this did not work... at all. So now, we have mob spawns that, combined with the raid rules agreed upon by the majority of the raiding guilds encourage 4 day rotating afk camps of the raid mobs. Camping is better discouraged by other means. So, that is why I propose eliminating the spawn variance and simply adding a flat 6 hours to the spawn time of raid bosses. This accomplished several things.

1. It guarantees that the mobs will progress around the clock within a few spawns giving the euros, aussies, and usa players all equal shots at the mobs during their own prime time.

2. It enhances the value of intelligence (knowledge of the mobs last time of death). Knowing the time of death is more important for not missing the next spawn with your tracker or raid force.

3. It keeps the number of raid spawns very close to their actual original spawn rate, which was the original intent for how fast raid level items were supposed to enter the game.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Mob Aggro Messages

Each raid target mob should have a message that they deliver in /say or /shout when they are aggro'd from the state of having a clear aggro list. It should be something along the lines of Lord Nagafen shouts, "How dare you presume to enter my lair, Dumesh! Ah, but I was getting hungry for some Troll anyway, do come in."

I'll admit this is a non-classic proposal, although I feel that it is in line with the classic philosophy. There are already a multitude of mobs that will /say something or emote something in response to being aggro'd from the state of having a clear aggro list. Death touching mobs will also specifically call out a players name. I imagine (hope) it would not be too difficult to add or modify these existing behaviors to have the /say incorporate the name of the player pulling aggro. It is certainly some work for the devs, but once the method is perfected, I believe that it wouldn't take very long to add it to each raid mob as Sky, Kunark, and Velious are added. I'm also sure the devs would have all the help they could want from the community for coming up with witty or clever lines for each mob as well.

This suggestion is directly related to goal #2. The devs won't have to spend much time sifting through logs, nor will the players have any ambiguity about who got aggro first.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Severe Punishments

I am promoting severe punishments for 2 reasons.

1. They will reduce the instances of players KSing raid mobs or training raid forces under my one rule of raiding.

2. Because of #1, the devs/guides/GMs will have a reduced demand for their services in moderating raid mob disputes.

There are existing rules of the server that prohibit KSing and training. These, combined with "First Aggro + 15" and Mob Aggro Messages present a situation where guilds can compete and know instantly and without error who won. Without adequate punishment for breaking the KSing and Training rules, guilds who lost the race to aggro, might be tempted to KS or train the winning guild in hopes of obtaining the loot, counting on the devs not wanting to investigate, or a lenient punishment. With adequate punishment, we should expect a grudging /say or /shout of "gg, guild x, you got him this time, but we'll be back." Perhaps it won't be an instant transition, but it should come swiftly if a few guilds actually do KS and face the new punishments.

Ultimately, I hope for developer and player response to make sure that this does satisfy all the major goals of both parties with regard to the raiding scene, and subsequent response from the developers to enact this as server policy.

Lastly, let me implore the community to keep this thread shit-free. Please present your opinion of the system if you like. Please present constructive criticism if you like. Please try to argue the merits of particular points where you can, which is much more useful than just saying "ur plan sux, dude!" If you must troll, make a new post in R&F about how big of a douche you think I am. I'll come play in there, I promise.

[Cogwell]

I'd like to make a reservation for 8:30, non-smoking.

[gnomishfirework]

I think there are rules already in place.

[Dawgrin]

I just had a couple questions.

1. What is the definition of "Begin the fight"? Does this mean that the group represented by the person who got first aggro has 15 minutes to get a tank on the mob, and if the mob is not "controlled" by a tank within 15 minutes the mob becomes FFA?

2. Is there any time limit imposed after the fight has begun?

3. What happens if the fight has begun, but then control is lost, but aggro is not, say in the case of tanks losing control and the fight devolving into an exercise in kiting?

I liked the idea of each raid mob having a unique statement naming the person who aggroed them when they are initially aggroed. Not entirely classic but very much within the "spirit" of classic IMO

[guineapig]

Originally Posted by Dawgrin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just had a couple questions.

1. What is the definition of "Begin the fight"? Does this mean that the group represented by the person who got first aggro has 15 minutes to get a tank on the mob, and if the mob is not "controlled" by a tank within 15 minutes the mob becomes FFA?

I would assume beginning the fight means doing something detrimental to the mob. Be it damage or debuff.

Originally Posted by Dawgrin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. Is there any time limit imposed after the fight has begun?

I would assume it's either the mob dies or the raid wipes. As soon as the raid wipes the next guild can move in.

Originally Posted by Dawgrin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. What happens if the fight has begun, but then control is lost, but aggro is not, say in the case of tanks losing control and the fight devolving into an exercise in kiting?

I'm pretty sure that the raid bosses all summon so I don't think kiting is an option. If this is incorrect however then it should be addressed. Honestly though if somebody is able to effectively solo or duo a raid mob to death than more power to them. They should not loose the target just because there's only a chanter cleric and necro left after the rest of the raid died.

However, if the only people that are left alive are FD or something like that then you have just completely wiped the aggro from your raid and lost your shot.

Originally Posted by Dawgrin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I liked the idea of each raid mob having a unique statement naming the person who aggroed them when they are initially aggroed. Not entirely classic but very much within the "spirit" of classic IMO

Agreed!

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Excellent Questions.... let me take them 1 at a time.

Originally Posted by Dawgrin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. What is the definition of "Begin the fight"? Does this mean that the group represented by the person who got first aggro has 15 minutes to get a tank on the mob, and if the mob is not "controlled" by a tank within 15 minutes the mob becomes FFA?

This point deserves more discussion. I was not 100% sure I wanted to go with put a tank on it, because that might limit valid strategies for killing the mob. What if a force of 24 magicians showed up to take a mob? Perhaps, taking the mob below 95% health is an appropriate signal that the fight has begun?

Originally Posted by Dawgrin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. Is there any time limit imposed after the fight has begun?

No. If they don't wipe or lose aggro, they can keep fighting until they do or the mob dies.

Originally Posted by Dawgrin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. What happens if the fight has begun, but then control is lost, but aggro is not, say in the case of tanks losing control and the fight devolving into an exercise in kiting?

I'm inclined to give the same answer as question #2. Recovering from lost control without wiping is definitely related to skill at playing the game. I am against punishing that. Other guilds hanging around hoping for the first to fail, must wait until the first force actually fails, which I have defined as losing all aggro, or now, let's say failing to deal 5% damage to the mob over the first 15 minutes.

Originally Posted by Dawgrin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I liked the idea of each raid mob having a unique statement naming the person who aggroed them when they are initially aggroed. Not entirely classic but very much within the "spirit" of classic IMO

Thanks for your input.

[Dawgrin]

Originally Posted by guineapig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm pretty sure that the raid bosses all summon so I don't think kiting is an option. If this is incorrect however then it should be addressed. Honestly though if somebody is able to effectively solo or duo a raid mob to death than more power to them. They should not loose the target just because there's only a chanter cleric and necro left after the rest of the raid died.

What I had in mind when I asked this question was preventing some sort of stalling tactic where you would do very minor damage (not enough to start the mob summoning). and then kite it around for a couple hours til your raid is ready...