Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Cuktus]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You may be right that there weren't as many soloers in the classic era, but it's just a symptom of how far we've come in terms of the knowledge of the game...in order to change the amount of soloers holding down camps, you'd essentially need to nerf every class that's capable of soloing well or people will just switch to the next best one each time something is nerfed.

So this here, I would love to explore a bit deeper. While I am on Team Chanter and don't want to see anything nerfed, lets have a conversation (at 59 pages deep lol).

What is too strong? Is a 60 shaman with torpor soloing fungi's too strong? Is a 50 necro root/rotting frenzy too strong? Is quad kiting things too strong? Is being able to handle two standard outdoor spawns too strong? 4? 6? I am really interested in this. Where is the line drawn?

What about duo's? Should a duo be able to solo x, y, z? How do you quantify that?

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Cuktus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So this here, I would love to explore a bit deeper. While I am on Team Chanter and don't want to see anything nerfed, lets have a conversation (at 59 pages deep lol).

What is too strong? Is a 60 shaman with torpor soloing fungi's too strong? Is a 50 necro root/rotting frenzy too strong? Is quad kiting things too strong? Is being able to handle two standard outdoor spawns too strong? 4? 6? I am really interested in this. Where is the line drawn?

What about duo's? Should a duo be able to solo x, y, z? How do you quantify that?

That's precisely the point. Thanks for articulating it so well. Where's the line? It's not really an Enchanter issue at the end of the day. Enchanters just happen to currently be one of the strongest solo classes with tons of utility so the people trying to solo camp everything play those. If you nerf them, they will just switch to the next best choice to accomplish their goals, which is likely Necro. The issue people really have is that everyone has had so many years playing EQ that soloing is no longer difficult or scary, and everyone knows the prime spots to go, so they go solo those. I totally agree that you would never have seen this many soloers back in the day, but that's not an Enchanter issue, that's a player issue. And if you want to get rid of it completely under the idea of "classic atmosphere" then you'll need to unclassicly nerf essentially every class that can solo effectively.

[douglas1999]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's precisely the point. Thanks for articulating it so well. Where's the line? It's not really an Enchanter issue at the end of the day. Enchanters just happen to currently be one of the strongest solo classes with tons of utility so the people trying to solo camp everything play those. If you nerf them, they will just switch to the next best choice to accomplish their goals, which is likely Necro. The issue people really have is that everyone has had so many years playing EQ that soloing is no longer difficult or scary, and everyone knows the prime spots to go, so they go solo those. I totally agree that you would never have seen this many soloers back in the day, but that's not an Enchanter issue, that's a player issue. And if you want to get rid of it completely under the idea of "classic atmosphere" then you'll need to unclassicly nerf essentially every class that can solo effectively.

This is essentially the 'ol "Since we can't do everything, let's do nothing!" argument and it's very weak. Charm is absolutely absurd on this server and it totally wrecks the spirit of the game for a lot of people.

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by Cuktus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So this here, I would love to explore a bit deeper. While I am on Team Chanter and don't want to see anything nerfed, lets have a conversation (at 59 pages deep lol).

What is too strong? Is a 60 shaman with torpor soloing fungi's too strong? Is a 50 necro root/rotting frenzy too strong? Is quad kiting things too strong? Is being able to handle two standard outdoor spawns too strong? 4? 6? I am really interested in this. Where is the line drawn?

What about duo's? Should a duo be able to solo x, y, z? How do you quantify that?

The point is this is 2020, and people think their feels-based feedback matters.

Shit isn't classic.

The drivel in this thread would result in the posters getting locked out of future beta's, that is how SoE handled it.

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by douglas1999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is essentially the 'ol "Since we can't do everything, let's do nothing!" argument and it's very weak. Charm is absolutely absurd on this server and it totally wrecks the spirit of the game for a lot of people.

If charm "wrecks the spirit of the game", you should quit. As far as I see all the servers are doing quite fine.

Blue didn't 'get wrecked' due to charm, green and teal are a blast, so what is actually getting wrecked besides your feels?

There is always going to be a top dog, and it won't be a participation-trophy player, so the flood of tears won't ever stop.

[douglas1999]

The way chanters are played here you might as well just abolish all classes, and just have one generic class called "Fantasy Character" that has every ability in the game.

[Cuktus]

Originally Posted by douglas1999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is essentially the 'ol "Since we can't do everything, let's do nothing!" argument and it's very weak. Charm is absolutely absurd on this server and it totally wrecks the spirit of the game for a lot of people.

I completely disagree with you. This is a game, the devs absolutely can do everything, if they decided to do that.
I also completely disagree with you about charm. While yes, it is a powerful tool, there are many other powerful tools granted to many other classes. Making the argument that "if X is nerfed, then Y should be too", is perfectly reasonable. And if that is the rabbit hole, the question remains, where is the bottom?
How many mobs should a person be able to kill per hour? Per minute? How many should a group? This is the foundation of the problem. How large of a camp should a single player be able to break and then hold? For a warrior in level appropriate gear, probably not very many. For a druid in an outdoor zone.... more? Where is your vision of the game? What do you think should, and shouldn't, be possible?
I know this requires a lot more thought than a simple "charm OP, plz nerf", but I think putting things into absolute terms will really help clear up exactly where the problem lies, if indeed, there even is one.

Edit: I wanted to respond to this logic down here.

Originally Posted by douglas1999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The way chanters are played here you might as well just abolish all classes, and just have one generic class called "Fantasy Character" that has every ability in the game.

This is how I feel about the situation if we start up the nerf train. The only way to achieve true balance is to limit everyone to lvl 1 warriors. This is why I ask questions about the definition of what OP is, rather then making comparisons between classes.

[Lojik]

I really think people are barking up the wrong tree in regards to enchanter charm. From what was posted charm length seems pretty similar to 99 era. You should probably focus your efforts elsewhere, like pets taking xp in groups, npcs ksing xp on charm break, gcd nerf, recharge nerf, maybe summoning hate mechanics? Would the best enchanters be greatly affected? No, but you'd probably see far fewer enchanters being played the way they are now.

[bum3]

Ench says.. i'm dps.. if you want CC.. get a bard or root the mob.... me... oh man it started storming here real bad... /quit.

I didn't quit. I just disbanded him.

[A1551]

Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just to sort of add something semi-relevant to the thread, I found a post from Absor stating that pets do steal xp from a group if they outdamage the group. Crucially this is before the Dire Charm xp changes in PoP.

It's in the group pet xp bug thread now.

Wow...this would be huge, would really re write the way chanters need to play in groups. Probably wouldn't matter in full groups with real dps but basically any strat involving keeping a pet in a smaller group would be hit hard. This would be a cool change to see if classic, would require chanters weigh a lot of risk/benefits, might invalidate or otherwise nerf some current playstyles, etc. Of course it would have no impact on solo chanters at all...

Between this and charisma maybe not impacting charm (depending on implementation) that could be two very big differences!