Raid question - helping other guilds.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by zanderklocke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I cannot post in the raid discussion section, but I think some sort of agreement should be set among class R guilds on what it means if one guild helps another with their kill. 4 A-Team members helped Indignation with their Faydedar kill last night; A-Team did not take any loot. However, some class R guilds have requested that A-Team go to the bottom of the list with Indignation in terms of the rotation.

Personally, I think that seems a bit strict that helping another guild could essentially hurt your own in class R, but it would probably be good for an agreement to be set among these types of issues. Can a class R guild help another class R guild for no loot and maintain their rotation spot, assuming they aren't one of the next two up due to the 2-week lock?

There are certain reps from the Class R guilds that discuss the player-made agreement on an off-site forum... it wouldn't necessarily be posted here on Raid Discussion.

As an exaggerated example, if there are 4 Class R guilds that can kill Fay, and 35 Class R guilds are somehow on the Fay rotation, but they keep having to ask for help from the other guilds to kill Fay, there should be some consequences for that, should there not? Otherwise we're just needlessly thinning everything out for everyone and opening the rotation system up for exploitation by "alt guilds".

All a guild would be doing by continuously helping out other guilds is stringing out the rotation for everyone on it. So I would understand the the other Class R guilds might get a little concerned.

[zanderklocke]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it has nothing to do with class R requesting it, go look at the lockout sheet, A-Team and Indignation are on full lockout. You assist and you get locked out, period.

That's not what I'm asking. I understand we are locked out for the next 2 spawns. However, we would not have been up on the rotation for the next 2 Class R spawns regardless, based on the info I have received.

If we were slot 8 on the rotation for being up for Faydedar and helped a guild freely who was up, does that mean we go to the bottom of the rotation list? I'm not even sure what number is the bottom of the rotation list as I personally have no visibility into the rotation list. I essentially learn everything second-hand from A-Team officers.

Yendor posted above about an off-site forum, but as a class R guild member myself, I have no idea what's going on 90% of the time. I find out maybe a day before that we are up for mobs.

Is this off-site forums that only officers can post on viewable to non-officers in class R guilds?

[jaybone]

Pm the mystical virgins for answer.

[YendorLootmonkey]

If it makes you feel better, Z, I don't know what is going on 90% of the time either... I don't have visibility to anything either other than what's been told to me by the leadership in my guild. What you're asking needs to be addressed by your guild's raid reps to the player agreement.

[Morgander]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are certain reps from the Class R guilds that discuss the player-made agreement on an off-site forum... it wouldn't necessarily be posted here on Raid Discussion.

As an exaggerated example, if there are 4 Class R guilds that can kill Fay, and 35 Class R guilds are somehow on the Fay rotation, but they keep having to ask for help from the other guilds to kill Fay, there should be some consequences for that, should there not? Otherwise we're just needlessly thinning everything out for everyone and opening the rotation system up for exploitation by "alt guilds".

All a guild would be doing by continuously helping out other guilds is stringing out the rotation for everyone on it. So I would understand the the other Class R guilds might get a little concerned.

I see your point but on the other hand, if we the community do not want this to happen, then we as the community should be saying no to helping other guilds.

Obviously if we're helping people then we're saying--full blown--that we accept this helping other guilds as fact.

Not all of us care as much about how many items we get apposed to how much fun everyone on the entire server is having. Plus, I have several level 60's and the like, so how is it different if my tagged class C character helps a class R guild apposed to my untagged class R? Or a class nothing character? I just don't see the differentiation.

There should NEVER be a case when this kind of discussion is so full of question. We have server GM's and this is their server, what are THE RULES?

IF we have to question these rules like this then there are no rules about this. If rules are not set in stone then how can we feel consequences for the actions of rules not set in stone?

I for one happen to have characters in two guilds and I want to be able to raid with my one guild when the other isn't raiding. I just don't see why this is or should be a problem. This is like telling me that I'm grouping with one group on Monday in Seb and grouping with another group on Tuesday in HS, and now because it's a different group on Tuesday, I'm locked out of HS for a week.

They do that in other mmo's like EQ II.

I just don't see such a huge differentiation between any of the content. Content is content, the only "value" it has is arbitrary to those who want it the most. Why can't I be considered in two guilds? Why do I have to be forced to have loyalty to only one guild? Why can't I have more than one friend or group of friends? What if both guilds accept this based on a predisposition of how much I raid with X guild apposed to Y?

I'm a citizen of the US but my loyalty to humanity goes beyond that. My first and foremost loyalty is to morality, dignity, and good-will. If my loyalty to my country is to be bent, it will and must be bent if my country attempts actions that goes against the scope of my feelings towards the human race.

The same should surely go for a game. And besides, it also shouldn't even have to get that far. EQ is important to me, but not as important as the moral justifications of real life.

So I ask again, what are the official rules? And if those rules are unjust, how can we make them as such?

[Khaleesi]

Isn't this simply a matter of ethics/morality or guild rules?

How is this staff's business? - especially since they want to take such a hands off approach to things now and let guilds sort issues out.

[Derubael]

The lockout system inherently forces some restrictions on guilds helping other guilds (cross or same class). That's because its hard coded in to make everything easier for everyone (auto updates to raid.php). Like Chest said, if too many people help another guild engage a target, they'll get locked out (and it will flag in our system if you kill that mob during your lockout).

My understanding is that if you have one or two people from another guild on the encounter list, it won't lock that guild out. I've never seen it tested, but I know Rogean wanted to allow a tiny bit of leeway in that regard for several reasons. That being said, if you get locked out, don't quote my post and claim I stated you wouldn't get locked out [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] because I can't say for sure that it's working that way.

[Morgander]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The lockout system inherently forces some restrictions on guilds helping other guilds (cross or same class). That's because its hard coded in to make everything easier for everyone (auto updates to raid.php). Like Chest said, if too many people help another guild engage a target, they'll get locked out (and it will flag in our system if you kill that mob during your lockout).

My understanding is that if you have one or two people from another guild on the encounter list, it won't lock that guild out. I've never seen it tested, but I know Rogean wanted to allow a tiny bit of leeway in that regard for several reasons. That being said, if you get locked out, don't quote my post and claim I stated you wouldn't get locked out [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] because I can't say for sure that it's working that way.

Would it be possible to get an official statement from Rogean on this lockout mechanic?

I would really like to know if I for example, as just one single person, can help out my friends if it's just me with a class C tag.

I'm not out to "help" the class R guilds who can't contest class R content, I just want to be there to help my friends who don't happen to be in a class C guild.

I just feel that if I cannot, that's a really unfair restriction. It just makes me sorta feel like I'm being forced to only play with a specific group of people, and if those people don't have the time, or the manpower to turn class C, then I'm told I can't have fun with them. That just seems kinda crappy to me.

I'm not out to make anything difficult. I'm not out to rule lawyer. I just want to be able to play and fight with my class C friends and my class R friends. Heck, even if my class R friends don't need my help, I'd still like to be able to be there with them on the character I choose to be with them on.

Hopefully this lockout thing and the rules as currently set do make it ok for just one or two people to help another guild without any negative repercussions. If Sirken or Rogean or anyone else can officially let me and anybody else in which this kind of thing is of interest know, that would be greatly appreciated.

[Khaleesi]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The lockout system inherently forces some restrictions on guilds helping other guilds (cross or same class). That's because its hard coded in to make everything easier for everyone (auto updates to raid.php).

Wait, wait, P99 devs can manipulate to that degree, and instead of doing so on aspects of the game that affect more than the just top 10% runny nose players, they do it to assist a raid scene full of synthetic rules that shouldn't exist in the first place?

And doesn't any sort of intervention, software or CSR, go against the new hands-off policy?

Christ, it's amazing this server ever got past it's first year.

[Swish]

So nobody really knows. I'd say there's an element of red creeping in here... people trying to get guilds raid banned for being helpful.

Be smart, if you're helping another guild out for 30 minutes, deguild and join them for the encounter. What's stopping you?

That way the young lawyers wont have much for screenshot evidence...and its the spirit of 1999 to help out.