Pal VS SK end game

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The main reason why SKs edge out Paladins in general grouping is because of FD pulling. With an SK you can have your tank and puller as one class, similar to having a monk who can pull and tank. This means you could get away with less group members, and thus more XP per kill. Paladins can pull, but it is generally slower and more dangerous. When you have a Paladin tank you would typically want a dedicated puller as well.

You could argue that a Paladin could act as your reser at 60, and therefore could get away with having a Shaman as your main healer instead. But Paladins only get their good res at 60, so this means you can't do that for levels 1-59, whereas SK's can start FD pulling at 30. A lot of people also have pocket clerics these days, so you can get away with having a res bot parked somewhere when needed.

Don't get me wrong, both are great in groups, and both can solo well. And there are situations where Paladins are better. They do better in any solo situation where you cannot fear the mob, for example.

I will say that compared to all the classes I’ve ever played the Paladin class didn’t feel like it “woke up” until late. 3 of the best spells are 59/60. Warrior is maybe the only class that woke up harder at the high end … or shaman before and after torpor. Paladins just get exponentially better at every level beyond 50 with big boosts after 55. They are always good but get GREAT late in the game.

Caveat: I have all respect for you. The following is not an attack. Educate me if I’m wrong. I had to take 2.5-3 years off p99 so my memory could be honestly fuzzy.

Can you name off the camps/areas where FD pulling is mandatory … or if not mandatory then preferable? And if so if so the types of camps that with a balanced group you want your tank pulling to begin with? I can think of a very … very few where maybe a SK as the tank would be preferable with a less than balanced group or a small squad.

My memory says:
-Kael arena hunting inside the building +/- PoZs
-deep in DN on the harder/nastier rats (if you don’t have a monk/bard)
-deep deep seb … protector/fungiKing (if you don’t have a monk)

There are probably more I can’t remember … so I’m honestly asking. What types of group content MANDATE FD pulling? Most all camps you just pull 2-5 or 7 and cc. The faster the better. Of those camps that need to have a degree of control; lulling works. Resists happen but crit resists with end game gear and buffs are rare. If FD is either required or preferred … having the tank pull both roles slows the group down hugely vs just inviting a monk (or if outdoors dang a Ranger).

FD pulling is very unique; but it is RARE where it is necessary or even preferable (sk FD pulling is slow) vs just pulling more and using other CC tools.

If there are lots more let me know, because from what I remember most all camps or group goals don’t even remotely apply.

If I’m wrong; re-educate me.

My main is a WARRIOR and I have face pulled most of this game with zero problems in any half-decent group, duo or trio. Warriors can’t FD, snare, root or lull. Beyond that I have pulled most every camp on my monk/bard. I’ve pulled most of the same on my paladin. I’ve played most (but not all) classes up to 60. I’ve pulled as “the ideal” class in most situations at all group levels. I can identify very few that would benefit from having a sk who is also tanking and inefficiently pulling with snare/FD where the outcome is ideal. In most cases just pull without FD … cc … and kill faster. Those camps exist but they are few and far between.

As an aside … I have had many profitable duos on my pal with an ench. Better with my cleric but my paladin can heal/buff an ench well enough to plow through high end zones.

Only classes I can think of that pair well with OP ench are my cleric or my shaman.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DPS: in a fast moving group, they will honestly be about the same. Yes a SK can load up them dots for a harder burn but you’s gonna find yourself sitting on your arse oom if you think a SK will keep up with it regularly enough to make a difference unless pulls or slow or there’s a lot of down time in the camp. SK pet can function as a nice dot, but it’s a wash.

I can tell you've never played a SK, their final 2 pets are way more than a washed dot, lol. The last one will quad for 47 & lifetap, not to mention SK's have a small haste for their pet as well. I pretty much always have a max one running when allowed. SK's do more dps than pallies, between their taps, pets, dots, debuffs, etc. there's really no debate there. Nothing a pally has really does anything to contribute to killing stuff faster, besides maybe their undead nuke which sks also get and is probably the reason I don't really play mine.

I give pallies the edge for raiding, and maybe certain solo situations 51+ where FD is not required & the mob is super MR & fearing is not an option. SK wins otherwise

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say that compared to all the classes I’ve ever played the Paladin class didn’t feel like it “woke up” until late. 3 of the best spells are 59/60. Warrior is maybe the only class that woke up harder at the high end … or shaman before and after torpor. Paladins just get exponentially better at every level beyond 50 with big boosts after 55. They are always good but get GREAT late in the game.

Caveat: I have all respect for you. The following is not an attack. Educate me if I’m wrong. I had to take 2.5-3 years off p99 so my memory could be honestly fuzzy.

Can you name off the camps/areas where FD pulling is mandatory … or if not mandatory then preferable? And if so if so the types of camps that with a balanced group you want your tank pulling to begin with? I can think of a very … very few where maybe a SK as the tank would be preferable with a less than balanced group or a small squad.

My memory says:
-Kael arena hunting inside the building +/- PoZs
-deep in DN on the harder/nastier rats (if you don’t have a monk/bard)
-deep deep seb … protector/fungiKing (if you don’t have a monk)

There are probably more I can’t remember … so I’m honestly asking. What types of group content MANDATE FD pulling? Most all camps you just pull 2-5 or 7 and cc. The faster the better. Of those camps that need to have a degree of control; lulling works. Resists happen but crit resists with end game gear and buffs are rare. If FD is either required or preferred … having the tank pull both roles slows the group down hugely vs just inviting a monk (or if outdoors dang a Ranger).

FD pulling is very unique; but it is RARE where it is necessary or even preferable (sk FD pulling is slow) vs just pulling more and using other CC tools.

If there are lots more let me know, because from what I remember most all camps or group goals don’t even remotely apply.

If I’m wrong; re-educate me.

My main is a WARRIOR and I have face pulled most of this game with zero problems in any half-decent group, duo or trio. Warriors can’t FD, snare, root or lull. Beyond that I have pulled most every camp on my monk/bard. I’ve pulled most of the same on my paladin. I’ve played most (but not all) classes up to 60. I’ve pulled as “the ideal” class in most situations at all group levels. I can identify very few that would benefit from having a sk who is also tanking and inefficiently pulling with snare/FD where the outcome is ideal. In most cases just pull without FD … cc … and kill faster. Those camps exist but they are few and far between.

As an aside … I have had many profitable duos on my pal with an ench. Better with my cleric but my paladin can heal/buff an ench well enough to plow through high end zones.

Only classes I can think of that pair well with OP ench are my cleric or my shaman.

I have heard a lot of people like the strategy of just pulling mobs into camp without FD and then dealing with them in camp. There are a lot of places where you could get away with doing that just fine. But in my play experience I prefer FD pulling, even if it is a bit slower. Any group wipe will destroy whatever time you saved by not FD pulling.

I think it really depends on who you tend to play with. If you normally play with a static group that is talking over discord who knows the game well, then you can get away with not using FD pulling in many cases. But if you normally play with random people and pickup groups, FD is going to be preferable over the more dangerous pulling in to camp strategy. Public groups are typically just not organized enough to handle that kind of pulling, and often times people will AFK randomly.

That is why I normally say SK's are better for group situations, because they are the better option when dealing with public groups, and they still work great in statics. Paladins aren't going to be as good of pullers in public groups.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can tell you've never played a SK, their final 2 pets are way more than a washed dot, lol.

I use gamparse to watch real-time dps in nearly every group I’ve been in. I am well aware of the actual dps the SK pet is capable of. I also am aware of how much better the max sk pet is when, when playing my shaman, I double stack maniacal strength and focus stack on said pet and it’s given a mage pet haste mask.

It’s basically a glorified dot and it scales down pretty hard the higher the level of the monster you’re fighting. It’s a nice addition to be sure, but please don’t even pretend it’s some amazing source of abundant dps.

I am no stranger to pet classes, pet dps capabilities per class and pet type. Check my sig below. I have 3 level 60 classes who can summon pets.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I use gamparse to watch real-time dps in nearly every group I’ve been in. I am well aware of the actual dps the SK pet is capable of. I also am aware of how much better the max sk pet is when, when playing my shaman, I double stack maniacal strength and focus stack on said pet and it’s given a mage pet haste mask.

It’s basically a glorified dot and it scales down pretty hard the higher the level of the monster you’re fighting. It’s a nice addition to be sure, but please don’t even pretend it’s some amazing source of abundant dps.

I am no stranger to pet classes, pet dps capabilities per class and pet type. Check my sig below. I have 3 level 60 classes who can summon pets.

I'm not saying it's some insane source of dps, but you're sitting here saying it's a wash when trying to argue that pally is a better grouping class. It's not a wash, and you're spreading false information.

99.99% of groups do not regularly need any of the pally stuff, like lulls, roots, etc. An occasional heal/rez here and there can come in handy, but if a pally is honestly healing that much, something is really off with the group. 100% of groups just want to kill shit as fast as possible. And with a SK you will kill stuff faster making them a better grouping class in addition to being a better overall solo class. I have a pally, they get a cool spell set, but their only real advantage is in the raid scene.

[Troxx]

I acknowledged all of the above things you pointed out already. And, no having a sk in the group instead of a paladin is not going to morph your team into a dps powerhouse wallowing in fountains of surplus xp from killing faster. Knights are just bad at dps. Functionally, their dps output is quite similar unless you’re routinely burning your mana bar which implies you’ve got tons of time to sit down meditating… which further implies that the extra dps POTENTIAL is a wash because you don’t have enough mobs to kill.

I made and have rested my case. It is all clearly spelled out a few posts ago and broken down in great detail.

No point in rehashing so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Imagine a shit tier sk dps ragging on shit tier pally dps.

Yikes

[mattydef]

Paladin is the better group tank for sure. SK cannot match what a paladin can bring to a group (root CC and heals make a huge difference). Yes, SKs have FD but nobody actually utilizes that in groups these days when it comes to pulling. You pretty much just send someone out to grab mobs and CC any adds as needed instead of trying to single pull split with FD.

I will say this though, in a group dungeon like seb with haste and buffs a knight with a high end weapon will put out surprisingly more DPS than a lot of people give them credit for.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by mattydef [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paladin is the better group tank for sure. SK cannot match what a paladin can bring to a group (root CC and heals make a huge difference). Yes, SKs have FD but nobody actually utilizes that in groups these days when it comes to pulling. You pretty much just send someone out to grab mobs and CC any adds as needed instead of trying to single pull split with FD.

Honestly most groups don't need a Paladin to do this. Having FD as an option allows your group to do more things, whereas most groups already have root and heals. At this point you are talking about a group that doesn't have anyone else with roots/heals. And that is fine if you build a group like that around a Paladin, but generally speaking you don't need to do that. It is easy enough to find a healer with root. If you can pull mobs in without FD, the content is already trivial, and you don't need the Paladin's toolkit.

[Crede]

Yea if you have a group needing a pally to be rooting/healing a lot, your support classes most def are loving that Netflix show.