venomous axe or sarnak wh?

[Snaggles]

The only reason a Venomous axe is "good threat" is that your melee damage is horrid in the low levels so a 84dd proc is a gamechanger. Hell at level 20 a cleric's smite is on par with all the best caster nukes. At level 60 that same proc is 2.8 dps on a 2 proc per minute average...essentially nothing.

In the low levels and some content threat simply doesnt matter much. Stuff is dying too quickly and the consequences aren't grave. DPS should still be dumping aggro if possible but too much aggro on a HK Noble is totally different than a raid mob or anything that can enrage. Just burn it down and keep pulling. Once stuff gets really nasty focus on the basic tier upgrades. This typically means a Frostbringer, something decent in the offhand (I used a Ykeshan War Club and then a Sarnak Warhammer). If you can loot an infestation throw that Frostbringer in the offhand and you're basically good until epics or ntov stuff.

In the higher levels and end gear you really should be balancing your setup (or at least one of them) for threat/aggro:

1.) Max haste cap per level cap: Every swing rolls your weapon ratio for melee threat. Per the wiki with a warrior if you are trying to keep aggro at 54 off a level 55 rogue it's going to be a chore. Double backstab and a 10% haste cap benefit. Another reason it's good to plan ahead for a worn haste upgrade. If you have an enchanter in your group they can do Wonderous Rapidity at level 58 but you are still under the haste cap without a 34/36% worn item at lvl 60 and thus you're doing less threat than you can simply by swinging without procs.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haste_Guide
Haste Caps
Level Max total haste permitted
1-30 50%
31-50 74%
51-54 84%
55-59 94%
60 100%


2.) Pick high ratio weapons: Damage bonus scales so at 60 an infestation at 9/18 will pull in a bit more swing-threat than a frostbringer with a slightly better ratio of 12/22. This is why I want to pull my hair out when people are main-handing a WESS on blue in 2021 with a frostbringer in their offhand. Just swapping that combo will pick up about 14% threat in ratio alone...not to mention your offhand does not swing at a 1/1 ratio of the mainhand. Gear to try and do some damage; don't just pick proc aggro or you will be living in a perpetual fight of catching up via RNG dice rolls. Not to mention one of the huge perks of a warrior tank is they actually do damage.

3.) Pick quality procs: You get 400 hate for one of these effects whether it lands or not stun/slow/interupt/poison counter/blind/ac debuff/tash. Having 50 poison counters doesn’t matter anymore unless that comes with like 200/tick poison damage. A DD or actual damaging dot on top of one of those "threshold effects" is just frosting on the threat cake but only if it lands (no dd land = no aggro). Assuming the effect lands and goes past 400….A Frostbringer is about 450 threat; an ykesha proc is about 474; a Scepter of Destruction is 680...if any of those DD's resist you just get the 400. Landed dots will roll into tick dps threat as well. For what it's worth if you can pick a WESS to offhand or Trochilic's Skean or a sarnak warhammer I'd personally go with the sarnak because stun is actually helpful and you likely will keep it around for some reason.

Snare whips, DD's without a secondary component are sub 400 hate. If you need that effect or are trying to do a ton of low-aggro damage sure swap them in. They are just horrid for actual tanking stuff. If you can hold aggro with a snare whip proc your dps arent great or are walking on eggshells for you.

So in short: Cap haste, pick dps weapons with great aggro procs or at least decent dps ones with great aggro procs. Pray for RNG and let the dps die if the stuff is hard...that's on them. I'm skipping clickies and all the other stuff because this is already 500 words too long.

[Stonewallx39]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2.) Pick high ratio weapons: Damage bonus scales so at 60 an infestation at 9/18 will pull in a bit more swing-threat than a frostbringer with a slightly better ratio of 12/22. This is why I want to pull my hair out when people are main-handing a WESS on blue in 2021 with a frostbringer in their offhand. Just swapping that combo will pick up about 14% threat in ratio alone...not to mention your offhand does not swing at a 1/1 ratio of the mainhand. Gear to try and do some damage; don't just pick proc aggro or you will be living in a perpetual fight of catching up via RNG dice rolls. Not to mention one of the huge perks of a warrior tank is they actually do damage.

So in short: Cap haste, pick dps weapons with great aggro procs or at least decent dps ones with great aggro procs. Pray for RNG and let the dps die if the stuff is hard...that's on them. I'm skipping clickies and all the other stuff because this is already 500 words too long.

Okay everything that Snaggles said in his post was gold (frankly this should be added to the wiki as a Warrior aggro guide). The piece about the WESS in MH cracked me up, I ran across a couple warriors recently doing this and just shook my head. I tried to help them understand the futility of this setup but horses and water or something like that.

To the OP Snaggles last remarks sum it up.

Now someone add this to the wiki!

[Snaggles]

That's very kind of you! Only add me if there is a Wall of Shame or a Wall of Unsubstantiated Opinions [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] .

[bradsamma]

I really wish people would stop using venomous axes for aggro. They suck for aggro.

Also WESS? Just about one of the most overrated items in the game. It's aggro is only soso yet it costs a TON. Any warrior over level 40 using a WESS should just put their armor in their backpacks.

[bobjonesp99]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only reason a Venomous axe is "good threat" is that your melee damage is horrid in the low levels so a 84dd proc is a gamechanger. Hell at level 20 a cleric's smite is on par with all the best caster nukes. At level 60 that same proc is 2.8 dps on a 2 proc per minute average...essentially nothing.

In the low levels and some content threat simply doesnt matter much. Stuff is dying too quickly and the consequences aren't grave. DPS should still be dumping aggro if possible but too much aggro on a HK Noble is totally different than a raid mob or anything that can enrage. Just burn it down and keep pulling. Once stuff gets really nasty focus on the basic tier upgrades. This typically means a Frostbringer, something decent in the offhand (I used a Ykeshan War Club and then a Sarnak Warhammer). If you can loot an infestation throw that Frostbringer in the offhand and you're basically good until epics or ntov stuff.

In the higher levels and end gear you really should be balancing your setup (or at least one of them) for threat/aggro:

1.) Max haste cap per level cap: Every swing rolls your weapon ratio for melee threat. Per the wiki with a warrior if you are trying to keep aggro at 54 off a level 55 rogue it's going to be a chore. Double backstab and a 10% haste cap benefit. Another reason it's good to plan ahead for a worn haste upgrade. If you have an enchanter in your group they can do Wonderous Rapidity at level 58 but you are still under the haste cap without a 34/36% worn item at lvl 60 and thus you're doing less threat than you can simply by swinging without procs.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haste_Guide
Haste Caps
Level Max total haste permitted
1-30 50%
31-50 74%
51-54 84%
55-59 94%
60 100%


2.) Pick high ratio weapons: Damage bonus scales so at 60 an infestation at 9/18 will pull in a bit more swing-threat than a frostbringer with a slightly better ratio of 12/22. This is why I want to pull my hair out when people are main-handing a WESS on blue in 2021 with a frostbringer in their offhand. Just swapping that combo will pick up about 14% threat in ratio alone...not to mention your offhand does not swing at a 1/1 ratio of the mainhand. Gear to try and do some damage; don't just pick proc aggro or you will be living in a perpetual fight of catching up via RNG dice rolls. Not to mention one of the huge perks of a warrior tank is they actually do damage.

3.) Pick quality procs: You get 400 hate for one of these effects whether it lands or not stun/slow/interupt/poison counter/blind/ac debuff/tash. Having 50 poison counters doesn’t matter anymore unless that comes with like 200/tick poison damage. A DD or actual damaging dot on top of one of those "threshold effects" is just frosting on the threat cake but only if it lands (no dd land = no aggro). Assuming the effect lands and goes past 400….A Frostbringer is about 450 threat; an ykesha proc is about 474; a Scepter of Destruction is 680...if any of those DD's resist you just get the 400. Landed dots will roll into tick dps threat as well. For what it's worth if you can pick a WESS to offhand or Trochilic's Skean or a sarnak warhammer I'd personally go with the sarnak because stun is actually helpful and you likely will keep it around for some reason.

Snare whips, DD's without a secondary component are sub 400 hate. If you need that effect or are trying to do a ton of low-aggro damage sure swap them in. They are just horrid for actual tanking stuff. If you can hold aggro with a snare whip proc your dps arent great or are walking on eggshells for you.

So in short: Cap haste, pick dps weapons with great aggro procs or at least decent dps ones with great aggro procs. Pray for RNG and let the dps die if the stuff is hard...that's on them. I'm skipping clickies and all the other stuff because this is already 500 words too long.

this post is helpful but i had a few questions to add on top of this.

afaik the formula for those spell effects like stun/slow/etc is hate=min(400,mob_hp/15). per your post, does this not apply for the snare effect?

are you certain that the DD/DoT damage component doesnt count as hate if it is resisted? afaik the hate does count for the spell effect even if it is resisted.

last question, does the DoT damage component count as hate over time, or is it applied all on the initial effect?

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by bobjonesp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this post is helpful but i had a few questions to add on top of this.

afaik the formula for those spell effects like stun/slow/etc is hate=min(400,mob_hp/15). per your post, does this not apply for the snare effect?

are you certain that the DD/DoT damage component doesnt count as hate if it is resisted? afaik the hate does count for the spell effect even if it is resisted.

last question, does the DoT damage component count as hate over time, or is it applied all on the initial effect?

In practice magic based snare is marginal aggro. I'm not sure the literal metrics behind it but even with a ranger trying to peel and hold aggro with it is very difficult instead of Flame Lick.

Similarly resisted DD just dont generate a lot of aggro; I understand it's basically one-for-one point. My mage doesnt even raise an eyebrow off the pet with a resisted nuke whereas a full couple DD's in a row will often cause issues.

IIRC the initial poison/disease counters will give you a lump-sum (400) along with whatever the initial DD is, dot damage per tick is essentially just direct damage aggro. A magic-based dot like the Tunare whip is extremely low aggro but it is something since you are picking up like 8dps as it rolls. It's just not anywhere in the same universe as a Blade of the Black Dragon Eye or Feverblade.

I'm lacking the code or parsing to prove most of my opinions here. I've witnessed it personally and read similar findings from forum peers. Perhaps too much bias but for napkin math it all seems to work in practice. If I had a warrior still I'd always have a snare whip, I just wouldnt put it in my aggro weapon setup unless the functional effect was needed.

[Botten]

	DamageHitInfo my_hit;
	// calculate attack_skill and skillinuse depending on hand and weapon
	// also send Packet to near clients
	my_hit.skill = AttackAnimation(Hand, weapon);
	LogCombat("Attacking with [{}] in slot [{}] using skill [{}]", weapon ? weapon->GetItem()->Name : "Fist", Hand, my_hit.skill);

	// Now figure out damage
	my_hit.damage_done = 1;
	my_hit.min_damage = 0;
	uint8 mylevel = GetLevel() ? GetLevel() : 1;
	uint32 hate = 0;
	if (weapon)
		hate = (weapon->GetItem()->Damage + weapon->GetItem()->ElemDmgAmt);

	my_hit.base_damage = GetWeaponDamage(other, weapon, &hate);
	if (hate == 0 && my_hit.base_damage > 1)
		hate = my_hit.base_damage;

	//if weapon damage > 0 then we know we can hit the target with this weapon
	//otherwise we cannot and we set the damage to -5 later on
	if (my_hit.base_damage > 0) {
		// if we revamp this function be more general, we will have to make sure this isn't
		// executed for anything BUT normal melee damage weapons from auto attack
		if (Hand == EQ::invslot::slotPrimary || Hand == EQ::invslot::slotSecondary)
			my_hit.base_damage = DoDamageCaps(my_hit.base_damage);
		auto shield_inc = spellbonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod + itembonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod + aabonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod;
		if (shield_inc > 0 && HasShieldEquiped() && Hand == EQ::invslot::slotPrimary) {
			my_hit.base_damage = my_hit.base_damage * (100 + shield_inc) / 100;
			hate = hate * (100 + shield_inc) / 100;
		}

This seems to state hate can be gained by wearing a shield; perhaps the amount of AC on the shield also plays a factor on more hate generation? Could this be correct?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Botten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

	DamageHitInfo my_hit;
	// calculate attack_skill and skillinuse depending on hand and weapon
	// also send Packet to near clients
	my_hit.skill = AttackAnimation(Hand, weapon);
	LogCombat("Attacking with [{}] in slot [{}] using skill [{}]", weapon ? weapon->GetItem()->Name : "Fist", Hand, my_hit.skill);

	// Now figure out damage
	my_hit.damage_done = 1;
	my_hit.min_damage = 0;
	uint8 mylevel = GetLevel() ? GetLevel() : 1;
	uint32 hate = 0;
	if (weapon)
		hate = (weapon->GetItem()->Damage + weapon->GetItem()->ElemDmgAmt);

	my_hit.base_damage = GetWeaponDamage(other, weapon, &hate);
	if (hate == 0 && my_hit.base_damage > 1)
		hate = my_hit.base_damage;

	//if weapon damage > 0 then we know we can hit the target with this weapon
	//otherwise we cannot and we set the damage to -5 later on
	if (my_hit.base_damage > 0) {
		// if we revamp this function be more general, we will have to make sure this isn't
		// executed for anything BUT normal melee damage weapons from auto attack
		if (Hand == EQ::invslot::slotPrimary || Hand == EQ::invslot::slotSecondary)
			my_hit.base_damage = DoDamageCaps(my_hit.base_damage);
		auto shield_inc = spellbonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod + itembonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod + aabonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod;
		if (shield_inc > 0 && HasShieldEquiped() && Hand == EQ::invslot::slotPrimary) {
			my_hit.base_damage = my_hit.base_damage * (100 + shield_inc) / 100;
			hate = hate * (100 + shield_inc) / 100;
		}

This seems to state hate can be gained by wearing a shield; perhaps the amount of AC on the shield also plays a factor on more hate generation? Could this be correct?

If you got that from the normal EQEMU code, there is no way to know if the P99 dev's have kept this part of the code the same, or customized it. The server side code for P99 has been customized quite a bit, and is not open source as far as I know.

[bobjonesp99]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In practice magic based snare is marginal aggro. I'm not sure the literal metrics behind it but even with a ranger trying to peel and hold aggro with it is very difficult instead of Flame Lick.

Similarly resisted DD just dont generate a lot of aggro; I understand it's basically one-for-one point. My mage doesnt even raise an eyebrow off the pet with a resisted nuke whereas a full couple DD's in a row will often cause issues.

IIRC the initial poison/disease counters will give you a lump-sum (400) along with whatever the initial DD is, dot damage per tick is essentially just direct damage aggro. A magic-based dot like the Tunare whip is extremely low aggro but it is something since you are picking up like 8dps as it rolls. It's just not anywhere in the same universe as a Blade of the Black Dragon Eye or Feverblade.

I'm lacking the code or parsing to prove most of my opinions here. I've witnessed it personally and read similar findings from forum peers. Perhaps too much bias but for napkin math it all seems to work in practice. If I had a warrior still I'd always have a snare whip, I just wouldnt put it in my aggro weapon setup unless the functional effect was needed.

so if DoT counts as a DD in terms of aggro generation, then Chelaki Tail wtih Strong Disease should be really good for.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by bobjonesp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

so if DoT counts as a DD in terms of aggro generation, then Chelaki Tail wtih Strong Disease should be really good for.

Yea it’s really the poison or disease counters more than the damage. A DD without a debuff or slight stun isn’t much aggro nor is a pure damage dot (like a Bloodfire). Either way you can meet that 400ish threshold and focus on damage and delay.