Something to tank about

[sciception]

I’ve noticed, in several other threads, that people seem confused about class power rankings and overall usefulness for leveling. This seems to be especially true when discussing hybrid classes such as Rangers, Shadow Knights and Paladins. So let’s chat a bit about Tanking classes to clear these misunderstandings up.

Best to worst tanks.

#1. Shadow Knight (SK) - By far the most effective tank due to the spells Disease Cloud, Clinging Darkness and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful). SK’s are one button wonders. All they do is spam their lowest level darkness spell (20 mana snare), and maybe a Disease Cloud (10 mana), to keep the mobs attention. Players that can effectively master the one button rotation may, however, find themselves in precarious situations such as: accidently joining the wrong group, apologizing for already having a group and the awkwardness of telling people your friends list is full. There are, however, some benefits such as: wizard does not have to wait forever to nuke, charm/pet classes being able to send their pets in immediately and the healers being able to sit down to med. As a bonus, both Troll’s and Ogre’s can be SK’s with their over-the-top stats and innate abilities. The incurred experience penalties due race and/or class are easily overcome by the rate at which you will be killing with an SK in your group (seriously, who FD pulls??). Overall, SK is a “Slam” dunk. Nuff said.

#2 Ranger – What????? Yeah, it’s the Ranger. The second on my list of effective tanks is probably the most under-rated of them all. Effective AC is the name of the game, and since Banded Mail will likely be “in-game” day 1, it’s impossible to ignore the agro-whores of EQ. With only 3 less dodge and 15 less parry than the Warrior (@50), the only thing that hinders a Ranger is the inability to wear plate armor at later levels (Oh! and no race that can slam). Some people will claim that Rangers are nothing but gimped Warriors, but give a Ranger a Fire Beetle Eye and watch the Warrior’s cry. Flame lick, a 10 mana spell, is arguably the best snap-agro spell in the game. So much so, that guild’s frequently use Ranger’s for mobs that have Death Touch timers (hence the “Ranger Down” meme we all remember). Furthermore, this amazing ability to hold agro is just the tip of the iceberg. Being ¼ Druid, the Ranger can also root CC (great for pulling as well), snare runners, buff/DS himself, SoW the entire group and even track mobs as they pop. Have a problem with people stealing your pulls? Not happening in a Ranger’s group. The only reason they aren’t listed as number 1 is end game AC, but who’s going to be wearing a full set of plate on their first character anyway? Stamina means very little when it comes down to it, maybe 100-200 hp’s @ 50 and keep in mind that Sol Ro is a long way off, so no Crafted/Ro or BF for you!

#3 Paladin – Number 3 on my list is by far the hardest to master. People tend to remember the chain stunning Paladin’s in all their glory, but this won’t be the case on Green Server. Until the Paladin gets his first stun spell at 30, the level 9 Flash of Light spell (FoL) is their primary means of agro (and here is where the “skill” comes into play). FoL by definition is a fear spell, and as advertised it fears, but if the Paladin is able to maintain a position within 5’ of the mob the spell serves instead as a high agro taunt. Unfortunately, unlike the Rangers Flame Lick and the SK’s Clinging Darkness, FoL has no damage over time effect so the mob must be constantly engaged to be effective (and, of course, to prevent the mob from running to his friends). Most well played Paladin’s never stop using this spell, even after acquiring their stun line, since it is “bar none” the most effective means for the Paladin to maintain agro (tossing in a Yaulp here and there). Also, in addition to snap-agro, these ¼ Cleric “Battle Priest” have an arsenal of useful spells/abilities at their disposal. They can Lull for pulls, nuke undead, heal/buff their party, wear plate and eventually they even get the ability to revive their fallen comrades (though this is so late in the game that it can’t be a PRO for leveling). And let’s not forget their Lay on Hands (LoH) ability. An additional means of snapping agro, this massive heal can turn a wipe into a “Hell Yeah,” moment in a blink of an eye. Having this button by your group window will gain you a LOT of esteem in your Cleric and Enchanter circles, and eventually be valued in raids as well.

#4 Mage Pets – Want a Warrior that roots, procs damage, stuns AND taunts every tick? Then a Magician’s pet is probably the right choice for you. Sure, a Magician isn’t a tank or even a hybrid for that matter, but his pet certainly qualifies. Pets can wear any armor, use any weapon, have innate procs, a 6 second taunt timer, are fully buff-able and you can’t toss a pebble (malachite in this case) without hitting its replacement. Pets will attack or back off as you command, never have to bail because of wife agro, never AFK, never loot, and like a stalker, always seem to have the same play times as you do. But, unlike a stalker, if you’re tired of playing with it you can just tell it to get lost without worrying about what to say when you see it again. Look at it like a master/slave relationship. Want it to sit in one spot or follow you around, then just tell it to. Like it the other way around? Give it some whips. Sounding pretty awesome huh? Unfortunately, pets do have some drawbacks. They tend to be experience-whores and can barely do anything without you telling them to. Mine are always wandering off in the wrong direction and have selective hearing when I ask them to come back. I can’t take them on our walks through public dungeons without them hitting on everyone they meet and I often have to dismiss them until we are alone and making camp. I should mention that my pets get pretty jealous when someone beats on me instead of them, so keep that in mind at certain parties.

#5 Warrior – The high maintenance tank. No snap agro, no provoke, broken taunt button and a very limited selection of proc weapons makes this tank the absolute worst tank on the list. Sure, you could look at it like a Monk pet for DPS purposes or maybe you want one for raids later, but as a leveling tank…bleh. This list is all about effective tanking while leveling and the only positive thing I can say about it is “It gets an experience bonus!” No disciplines to help leveling, completely gear dependent for everything and has practically no ability to save a healer or enchanter if shit hits the fan. Sure, it can work at a very slow pace, but from my experiences people don’t play this game at impulse speed and the group is going to be heavily reliant upon the Enchanter’s charm pet and the Cleric having 2 DA’s up at all times to survive. Trying to think of something to ease the tension, but nothing is coming to mind. IMHO, A Warrior at launch is basically just extra baggage only a guild mother could love. Hell, they aren’t even going to be the best tanks for raids until April 2020.

Well, I suppose you could add Monk or even an Enchanter’s charm pet to this list but you get the idea. It’s all downhill from here. With very little Planar gear to spread around at the end (only the Plane of Fear for the first 6 months?), and that gear being class specific, there really isn’t much point taking the end game into consideration yet(talking to you Warriors). Anyway, feel free to flame away below. Peace, Love and Cosmic Bunnies.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful).

Someone who's never found that spell useful hasn't achieved mastery of the class. It's possible to play a Shadow Knight at a mediocre level as a "one button wonder" but achieving expert or mastery levels of experience requires more effort.

Pretty much everyone who wants plate armor on a fresh server will be able to get bronze by the mid 20's if they want it. Rangers have to wait another ten levels or so for Rubicite. Rangers can wear shields while acting as tanks but seldom do so. The tank role kind of plays against the class's other strengths.

Paladins are the most defensive-minded of the tank types, and tend to get better as the rest of the group gets weaker. In particular they shine in groups which don't have a Cleric healing.

Warriors' aggro generation problems are typically solved either with click items (raids) or with liberal use of root (groups). They have the highest innate health and damage reduction of any class and deal good damage on par with (superior to, if berserk) a Ranger.

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In addition to the above comments, practical reality must warrant consideration as well: Regardless of how effectively Rangers can tank, few pick-up groups will invite them for that purpose ahead of any of the other tank types. As with so many things in life, public perception often affects outcomes more than the actual reality of something does.

Danth

[Trollhide]

Speaking of Rubicite, how long does it drop in classic?

[Dolalin]

Rubi drops until the fall 1999 era when the Temple of Sol Ro is released, I believe. So a reasonably long time.

[Benanov]

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

By far the most effective tank due to the spells Disease Cloud, Clinging Darkness and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful).

Shroud of Hate is, IMO, the snap-aggro spell you want at higher levels. Shadow Vortex is nice, but nothing pisses mobs off more than stealing their ATK. Shadow Vortex has its place. Both spells do no damage and will not break mez, so you can chain both of those, and siphon strength, and if you don't have a lot of DPS heat blood, and you have about 6 seconds to hammer on Disease Cloud (which will break mez) and that shoudl make the mob so absolutely pissed off that it won't even LOOK at a caster.

However - Shroud of Hate lasts longer as a buff, which means you can Shadow Vortex every pull (because you'll need to) and use Shroud of Hate as an ATK buff alongside Grim Aura.

[Polycaster]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pretty much everyone who wants plate armor on a fresh server will be able to get bronze by the mid 20's if they want it.
...
Paladins are the most defensive-minded of the tank types, and tend to get better as the rest of the group gets weaker. In particular they shine in groups which don't have a Cleric healing.
...
Warriors' aggro generation problems are typically solved either with click items (raids) or with liberal use of root (groups). They have the highest innate health and damage reduction of any class and deal good damage on par with (superior to, if berserk) a Ranger.

Danth

Only shorties will have bronze. Lg bronze is a bitch to get, and fairly rare, especially considering most tanks are fatties.

Actually SK are the best in weak groups because they can snare/ fear mobs. Any group that needs the tank to spend lots of mana to be effective (i.e., healing) is a crap group that will have lots of downtime. Paladin is a great class, but in most areas an SK is better.

Warrior agro problems are never solved, only partially mitigated. IIRC a war w/ 255 dex dual-wielding procs will still have to wait on average something like 10s between procs. This means slowers can't slow w/o getting beat, and mezd mobs need to be rooted. Root helps, but it can't be relied on due to breaks and lazy casters. As for root nets, no warrior is going to be using a root click every mob, and so it doesn't solve anything.

[Rang]

Originally Posted by Polycaster [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Only shorties will have bronze. Lg bronze is a bitch to get, and fairly rare, especially considering most tanks are fatties.

Actually SK are the best in weak groups because they can snare/ fear mobs. Any group that needs the tank to spend lots of mana to be effective (i.e., healing) is a crap group that will have lots of downtime. Paladin is a great class, but in most areas an SK is better.

Warrior agro problems are never solved, only partially mitigated. IIRC a war w/ 255 dex dual-wielding procs will still have to wait on average something like 10s between procs. This means slowers can't slow w/o getting beat, and mezd mobs need to be rooted. Root helps, but it can't be relied on due to breaks and lazy casters. As for root nets, no warrior is going to be using a root click every mob, and so it doesn't solve anything.

you should hang out in najena more

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Benanov [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

However - Shroud of Hate lasts longer as a buff, which means you can Shadow Vortex every pull (because you'll need to) and use Shroud of Hate as an ATK buff alongside Grim Aura.

You're not going to be using shroud of hate or grim aura on a fresh server Shadow Knight because both of those spells are Velious additions to that class.

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Don't forget medium bronze armor, which drops in Permafrost (and soldungb too). It's not hard to obtain. Only Ogres and Trolls are stuck having to wear large, hence the supply is usually sufficient. In general only the very fastest-leveling tank characters run into much trouble with item availability.

I've played Paladin and Shadow Knight both very extensively and regard Paladin as the slightly better group tank of the two although it's close enough that most groups don't care one for the other (a knight's a knight insofar as most groups care). I like the SK class better overall nowadays. I'd rather have either of them than a Warrior.

Danth

[sciception]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Someone who's never found that spell useful hasn't achieved mastery of the class. It's possible to play a Shadow Knight at a mediocre level as a "one button wonder" but achieving expert or mastery levels of experience requires more effort.

I am saying it isn't necessary and it isn't. Anyone can click Clinging Darkness over and over to achieve the same result. I guess if you are battling another SK then you might need a strategy, but is that really going to happen leveling?

Pretty much everyone who wants plate armor on a fresh server will be able to get bronze by the mid 20's if they want it. Rangers have to wait another ten levels or so for Rubicite. Rangers can wear shields while acting as tanks but seldom do so. The tank role kind of plays against the class's other strengths.

110 AC on Bronze Vs. 91 on banded, assuming you actually collect all the pieces your size. For leveling purposes, this is a nominal difference. That is also assuming people know where to go for their sizes. Large bronze is the most rare. Ogre's and trolls aren't going to have fun trying to get around in Nanjena and I assure you the camp in WK will be perma-camped.

Paladins are the most defensive-minded of the tank types, and tend to get better as the rest of the group gets weaker. In particular they shine in groups
which don't have a Cleric healing.

As a Paladin myself, I agree they shine. I don't agree that having a different type of healer is the reason. Pre-Planar the type of healer is almost inconsequential IMO. Paladin's also have the advantage of being able to actually get their bronze armor drops.

Warriors' aggro generation problems are typically solved either with click items (raids) or with liberal use of root (groups). They have the highest innate health and damage reduction of any class and deal good damage on par with (superior to, if berserk) a Ranger.

Like I posted, you will have Naggy and Vox. Perhaps you can clarify what clicky items you are referring to. After 3 months you get Fear and after 6 months you get Hate. I can't think of a thing that would make them viable, but again this is a leveling post. Also, Warrior's aren't getting block so the DR you speak of is also negligible. I stand with my statement that Warrior's are completely inept while leveling and average, at best 3rd place, for the first 6 month of raids as well.

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In addition to the above comments, practical reality must warrant consideration as well: Regardless of how effectively Rangers can tank, few pick-up groups will invite them for that purpose ahead of any of the other tank types. As with so many things in life, public perception often affects outcomes more than the actual reality of something does.

I agree that it will be difficult due to mindsets. What I am trying to get across with this post is the reality not the perception.

Danth

[Tenlaar]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've played Paladin and Shadow Knight both very extensively and regard Paladin as the slightly better group tank of the two although it's close enough that most groups don't care one for the other (a knight's a knight insofar as most groups care). I like the SK class better overall nowadays. I'd rather have either of them than a Warrior.

Danth

This is where I tend to fall on the issue as well. I regard paladin as the slightly better group tank in basically any situation where FD splitting isn't needed, but the increased ease of getting places and the easier time soloing through fear kiting makes me enjoy the SK more.