What if you don't want to be an Evil Shaman?

[kruptcy]

Hey I'm not arguing with you [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That comes from a page on the wiki specifically about the WIS vs STA debate.

The end result is in big red font that WIS is dramatically better than STA.

So again, the wiki debunks your theory.

Look Dino I like your posts in general, but I feel like the big red letters on that page are getting in the way of your basic reading comprehension here. Try to look past them and understand that the wiki "debunks" nothing about what I've said.

Wisdom = more mana than Stamina. Everyone agrees on this, including both myself and the author of that wiki page. And it's good to have both more Stamina and more Wisdom if you can. Again, everyone agrees with this: I don't think anyone is saying to max your Stamina and leave your Wisdom at 120, or vice versa.

But when you are deciding whether to get a little more Stamina or a little more Wisdom (either at creation or when choosing items), "more mana" is not the only thing that decides whether a stat is better or not. All that wiki page says is that Wisdom gives more mana than Stamina; it says nothing about whether mana is better than HP, ie. whether being able to cast one more spell is worth a greater chance of not being alive to cast that spell.

To actually decide which stat is better you have to decide (as the wiser people in this thread have noted) which do you want just a little bit more of when things go wrong? Not which stat is better in an abstract sense, not which one gives you the bigger number to brag about, but which stat is it better to have a little bit more of in situations when you have more mobs than you expect, or accidentally agro a mob after you've just finished a fight, or something like that.

Even then it's subjective: no one can prove that HP or Mana is categorically better than the other because they are both useful. But personally I'd rather be alive and able to drink a healing potion, or click a WC cap, or run a away a bit so I can cannibalize for some mana, or drop down off an edge so the mobs take a moment to run to me (so I can med or cann and then gate out), or run to the zone line, etc., than have the mana for an extra root but be dead and not be able to do any of those things.

If someone thinks they already have enough HP to stay alive in bad situations, and focuses on mana instead, I certainly can't prove them wrong, because I can't predict exactly how many HP you'll need to stay alive in every possible shitty situation. But on average I think having a bit more HP in a crunch is better than having a bit more mana, and for what it's worth the vast, vast majority of Shaman in the classic era agreed*.


* Although as we all know, people in classic weren't always right about things, so take that with the necessary grains of salt.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Drop it.

You're wrong.

That's a good, rational argument, which totally supports your opinion with solid evidence.

Glad we had this talk.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have access to all my evidence that proves me correct.

You just choose to plug your ears and not listen.

You can dream up all the mental gymnastics you want, but you are still wrong.

Get over it.

Ok first off, calm down: this is a discussion about micro-optimizing stats on a 19-year old elf simulator: I'm not plugging my ears or doing mental gymnastics, I'm stating an opinion and backing it up. That's generally how discussions work: one person states an opinion with evidence, another states a contrary opinion with counter-evidence, the first admits the other's evidence is convincing, or else they present their own counter-evidence, and so on. Clearly our evidence hasn't convinced each other yet.

Second, I'm happy to stop here; this isn't a Lincoln-Douglass debate, it's a discussion on which item someone might want to buy next, and I certainly think I've explained my take sufficiently. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because saying "BUT MY OPINION IS IN BIG RED TEXT ON A FAN-EDITED WIKI" isn't going to be the evidence that convinces me.

[loramin]

Ok, I know I said I'd stop, but I just had one more thought that actually supports your view.

For soloing Shaman I maintain that Stamina > Wisdom, but for Shaman who primarily group I think it might be the other way around. In a group surviving when your group dies doesn't help, so mana > HP in that sense, plus you usually have a healer, making HP even less important. Plus, at higher levels when you die even death is less of a big deal, as your Rogue can drag your corpse and your Cleric can rez you.

So it still depends heavily on unpredictable circumstances, but the more I think about it the more I think the circumstances of groups might favor Wisdom. But when soloing not dying > all.

[Gumbo]

Downfall of playing a Barbarian Shaman is having to run all the way back to Halas for spells at times...

Downfalls of playing a Shaman is spending 100K for Torpor and another 75-90K for a Tear for your epic.

[MagpieRockyl]

Why is Dino mad?

[icedwards]

Originally Posted by MagpieRockyl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why is Dino mad?

Economic anxiety

[Gumbo]

Originally Posted by SiouxNation [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've been thinking about this and I think my plan is to just load up on spells and fill my bank with them. Not a huge deal but also another call to adventure in EQ so a trip to Halas isn't that bad even so.

This is good if you plan on playing your character as a Twink and supplying him/her with unlimited money to buy all these spells.

[Phenyo]

Originally Posted by SiouxNation [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've been thinking about this and I think my plan is to just load up on spells and fill my bank with them. Not a huge deal but also another call to adventure in EQ so a trip to Halas isn't that bad even so.

I made the trip twice throughout leveling and used this method of banking/inventory for all spells. The run is classic as heck tbh. Be sure to stop off at the barb village to pick up pet spells!

Originally Posted by Gumbo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is good if you plan on playing your character as a Twink and supplying him/her with unlimited money to buy all these spells.

It's only a few hundred plat for 1-49. Even an ALS style shaman could make enough via gargoyle eyes in oot or something.