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Old 10-24-2017, 04:15 AM
Sorn Sorn is offline
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Default The Master Stamina Bug Report (2017)

Hello fellow neckbeards. I'm here to call upon p99 devs to nerf the shit out of melee/everything, and I am going to do it with all the thoroughness of a min/maxing top tier raid poopsocker. Buckle up, buttercups.

buttercups.jpg
You, probably.

Quote:
programmers can only read code and flowcharts
Code:
<?php require(classicStamina.php); ?>
First, A Brief History Of Stamina On P99

When P99 first came online in 2009, there was a rudimentary stamina loss/regen system in place. It was flawed and terrible and they disabled it so people could actually kill things and get places in a timely manner. There have been a lot of threads about it before and since, and considering how scattered everything is, I have elected to create this master thread to help devs really figure out how to fix this. Dear p99 devs:

FIX IT.

That said, here is a list of a bunch of the p99 threads I found that are relevant and not at all someone whining that runspeed is too slow for whatever reason (because no one cares about those people).

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=30539
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=113886
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=176276
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=190182
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=153226
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=212899

The History Of Stamina On Live

Stamina used to be a big deal but then one day in 2003 SOE replaced it with Endurance and the game hasn't been the same since. We cannot use any information other than jumping from live, but any info from about 2002 and back is relevant.

Why Is This Important?

It's classic. If it's classic, it should be in P99.

To expand: stamina will affect melee tactics, it will affect aspiring Olympic swimmers doing tiny tiny AFK laps in ponds (you know who you are), and it will affect who you want in the group because those silly stamina regen spells suddenly become a lot more important. Oh, and God forbid you battle rez someone and expect them to continue DPSing at the same rate as before without someone zinging the poor soul. It's a huge part of classic EQ that is currently missing from our nostalgia trips and I demand that it be fixed. Demand, I tell you!

The Mechanics

Stamina has several parts to it.

Here's a post for monks describing part of what it does from 2002, before STA was replaced with END: http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ksar-Monk-1-55
Quote:
Stamina (sta)- This stat affects a few things. First of all it has a direct relationship to how many hit points you have. In addition to this it affects the yellow bar below your health. If you have under 100 stamina and this bar runs out (which can happen with heavy weapons, lack of food, being overweight, etc) you will lose other stats and be slowed (ie. Swing your weapon less times per second). Seeing as how this is true I would definitely try to get this stat over 100, if not put all your points into stamina.
Base Stamina And Penalties


An old thread from Monkly Business has one post that recommends having your stamina above 100 as a monk. nilbog suggests in this thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=23162) that this avoids a minor attack/delay penalty. Another comment here (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...99512140128892) suggests that the moment it visibly depletes, you start missing a lot more, hitting for less, and you have fewer crits.

Now this comment here (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/c...3318656332#2):
Quote:
First, until they eliminated the stamina bar, sta at 100 or better meant that you could run out of endurance and not suffer detrimental effects on your melee.
And this comment here: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...01732639421878
Quote:
You have no penalty if your stamina is above 100. No agi/dex drop, no ac drop, no attack drop.
Now, if your yellow bar runs out AND your stamina is below 100, yes you do have major stats penalty.
And this comment: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...99712260018085
Quote:
Why would you bother logging combat text, and running a log file parser? You can just open your inventory and look at your stats. If your fatigue bar has run out (fighting underwater, weilding heavy weapons, etc) and your stamina statistic is low, you will lose agi and dex. If you are encumbered, you will lose agi.
There were of course some arguments about it, like this fellow who might've been smote by the RNG gods: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...01235157435170

This post from p99 in 2011 quotes an EQMac post (fortunately – the eqmac forums were baleeted by the gods of EQ development, which is a real shame): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...2&postcount=17

Stamina Regen


Stamina regen should be pretty high (much faster than either mana or hp), but not enough that it can't go down at all. Sitting will help it regen even faster!

Certain buffs can regen stamina.

http://fernworks.net/~dyeomans/DownL...ll.asp%3FId=86
(Read the comments for a laugh!)

http://xornn.tripod.com/Spells/spell.htm
Quote:
Stamina Regen
Invigor (24), Extinguish Fatigue (44)
Both of these spells will increase stamina regen drastically; Invigor will cause a stamina bar (the yellow bar) to fill up in just a tic or two, while Extinguish will flat out fill the bar as it lands. Tanks wielding heavy weapons can often get low on stamina, making them swing sluggish and reducing their combat abilities minorly.
Certain haste spells come with a small amount of stamina regen

http://xornn.tripod.com/Spells/spell.htm
Quote:
Augmentation is actually a weaker haste than Alacrity, but is longer duration and includes Stamina regen, AC and AGI (thus AC) buffs.
Certain spells deplete stamina.

Rezzes, of course, but also Bind Sight!

http://xornn.tripod.com/Spells/spell.htm
Quote:
Remote Viewing
Bind Sight (8), Shifting Sight (20), Cast Sight (34)
Parlor tricks mostly, and a chance for some nifty screeshots. This spell allows you to see through the eyes of your target, and you can also "hop scotch" to other targets you pick up during their travels. Duration is until your stamina runs out, though the farther way the target gets the more jumpy the "transmission" gets. [...] You can renew your stamina with stamina regen spells during the effects.
Weapon Swings


Each swing will deplete stamina. How much stamina per swing depends on weapon weight and encumbrance.

Regardless of weapon weight, consecutive fights will really hit you hard in the stamina bar. Here's a comment on a monk guide about camping the sarnak earring of station: http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ll=1#post92837
Quote:
2) Your stamina bar will drop to nothing after like 3 fights.
They didn't clarify why but I think it's because of all the coinage you end up with along with lots of fighting. Given that monks can drop their weapons and use their 0.0 weight fists, I think it makes a strong case for there being a base stamina loss per swing.

Weapon Weight


Wurmslayer is famous for this, being a 15 stone weapon, but it may also happen with other weapons. Let's say that with 100 stamina, a 15 stone weapon like Wurmslayer will leave you with < 20% stamina after a single fight, which may lead to an attack/speed penalty (if you have under 100 sta).

This post has a comment on weapon weight: http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ll=1#post92187

Quote:
If your stamina isn't 100+, you might care more about your weapon's weight. If you're a monk, you might really care about weight as well. I'm not going to cover this and break it down at this time.
Here's a post that discusses stamina for rogues: http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/f...ide-to-soloing
Quote:
Stamina is also very important. I'm not talking about the stamina stat, but the stamina bar in the corner. Remember when I said to use lightweight weapons? Well that is because you want your stamina up for a a number of reasons. During your pull, while chasing your MoB after a successful instill doubt, or during a retreat to zone; you will probably be making good use of your jump button (which requires stamina). With heavy weapons and a low stamina, you'll be a dead rogue. So keep an eye on that bar.”
“One thing to avoid are heavy weapons. Ditch that glowing iron pike and anything else that is over 4 weight (with the exception of the PGT), because the stamina bar is a big issue when it comes to soloing (explained later).
Now of course we can get to the Teir`Dal Sai on a monk, which is first of all a heavy weapon and second of all it has a very low delay: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...00241448261201
Quote:
So that 5.2 wieght can cause you to burn through your stamina in no time at all. Which is VERY bad if you're fighting a high lvl velious mob. About halfway through the fight, your rate of attack, and agility will drop considerably (IE now the mob is dying more slowly and you will die much more quickly).
(Later comments state that STA above 100 will keep you from suffering this penalty, although you WILL lose stamina points very quickly and end up unable to jump.)

Dual Wielding


Stamina takes into account both weapons. See this comment: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...99176684796742

Combine the weight of both weapons and I think that should be the correct amount for the stamina loss formula.

Double Attack


According to this comment: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...01525131745125
Quote:
As for the Stamina - when stamina dropps down, your Double Attack skill appears to go down. You still hit as hard as usual, but instead of DA giving you 7 attacks per 4 rounds, you will only get 5 or 6. Unless someone has a slot free or unless Zing is already loaded for someone else, just put the heavy weapon into a bag when you reach half-stamina and let your fists do the talking.
Encumbrance


This ought to affect stamina loss the way it affects agility, at least for running. Moving while encumbered should cause markedly more depletion.

Related, full stamina loss will result in lower dex and agi (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...99712260018085), if you have <100 STA

Encumbrance And Weapon Swings


I am not sure if this is calculated in with weapon swings or if it's only with movement.

Melee Abilities


Slam/Bash/fancy monk kicks - ? I find no mention of this anywhere but I think it can be lumped in with regular hits.

Running


Running for long periods has been known to deplete stamina, but it takes a LOT of running and I have found no real mention of it anywhere except in passing.

Swimming


Swimming should deplete stamina much faster than running, enough that classes with invigor or extinguish fatigue are a must when venturing into Kedge Keep. You can regain stamina by allowing yourself to sink to the bottom of the water and sitting. How do I know you need to sit? Here's a post from a monk about soloing bloodgills in LOIO, and at one point they mention a safe spot to sit to regen stamina: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...8-51-t787.html

Here's a good comment regarding how fast stamina might deplete when crossing an ocean: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/z...96956897818024
Quote:
A. Get yourself a SOW and a levitate. Run SouthEast to the Elven Outpost. It's a long run with both sow and levitate on. Catch the ship and take a ride to FV.

B. Avoid the Ogres ( Camo, Invis, Sneak ) and get on the Bloated belly. Ride that past the shipwreck and the island with the Iskar Master. As soon as you pass that island, you'll zone, so JUMP OFF THE BOAT. Swim Due East and you'll be at the Elf Outpost shortly.

C. From the far end of the Sprioc Village, swim East to the Fallen Iskar Island. Sit to reagain your stamina
Random Other Things

You will randomly get 'seasick' while on the boat and drop to 40% stamina: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/z...01263138442244

Oh hey, here's a mention of a second boat...: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/z...00230966917545

Okay, that has nothing to do with stamina. Sorry. Relevant info should be posted in this thread. Let it become...THE MASTER THREAD. For this year. Maybe next year. But if it goes into 2019 with no resolution I will be very upset. :<
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:36 AM
Rygar Rygar is offline
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A most comprehensive ClassicQuest, probably the most impressive I've seen. My hat is off to you! Very interesting read.

I want to be sure I understand something though from early on in your post... here is your quote:

Quote:
You have no penalty if your stamina is above 100. No agi/dex drop, no ac drop, no attack drop.
Now, if your yellow bar runs out AND your stamina is below 100, yes you do have major stats penalty.
If I understand this correctly, so long as your stats read 100 STA in your UI, you will not be slowed / lose other stats (dex / agi) when your yellow bar runs out?

I can't imagine many melee would be under 100 STA even as a non-twink, so even if implemented I don't think this would be as game changing as you envisioned? Seems like it would only prevent you from jumping, or maybe running / swimming away if you choose to run from a fight that isn't going your way.

I couldn't quite tell from post if depleted stamina will make you run slower or not, I didn't see that... would that take effect? This could be slightly game changing in a group dynamic if you need to keep the puller's stamina up so they can keep grabbing pulls without getting beat on.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the mechanic, please help clarify.

I think it was cool some of your other findings like Bind Sight depletes stamina... could indeed have an effect for someone bind sight tracking / screen-sharing AFK.
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:07 AM
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Client issue I believe.
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:14 AM
Daldaen Daldaen is offline
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A+ Classic Quest. Daldaen stamp of approval.

P99 really needs to switch over to the EQMac client. You can get so classic with that client. Limits you to a single hotkey bar, no Mana in inventory, no scroll wheel, no combat ability window. Stamina actually has client support.

Nilbog, it is time. Lead P99 to the promised land of a most classic client!
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:11 PM
Sorn Sorn is offline
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@Caiu - p99 devs have much more control over the client and know a lot more than they did back in 2009, so I believe this can be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
If I understand this correctly, so long as your stats read 100 STA in your UI, you will not be slowed / lose other stats (dex / agi) when your yellow bar runs out?

I can't imagine many melee would be under 100 STA even as a non-twink, so even if implemented I don't think this would be as game changing as you envisioned? Seems like it would only prevent you from jumping, or maybe running / swimming away if you choose to run from a fight that isn't going your way.

I couldn't quite tell from post if depleted stamina will make you run slower or not, I didn't see that... would that take effect? This could be slightly game changing in a group dynamic if you need to keep the puller's stamina up so they can keep grabbing pulls without getting beat on.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the mechanic, please help clarify.

I think it was cool some of your other findings like Bind Sight depletes stamina... could indeed have an effect for someone bind sight tracking / screen-sharing AFK.
This is an excellent question and since it was so late last night I had to carry on research in the morning. I've also discovered people call it 'fatigue' so now I'm also looking that up.

I think the 100+ STA is for melee only, for fighting. You still lose STA, and it seems +STA gear was actually quite tough to get so there was a real concern in classic, especially for the smaller races who don't start out with as much stamina as ogres or trolls. When I find old classic stats for people's toons, base STA is very very very often under 100 if they're not ogres or trolls. This is actually VERY important for untwinked lower levels (not max raid-geared nerds), even on p99.

As for whether or not there is still a penalty after getting over 100 STA, I am actually not sure. It's one of those grey areas. I'm inclined to think there WAS some sort of penalty (besides not being able to jump). Some of these comments mention losing AGI and DEX with no mention of base stamina, so I actually think the game would murder your AGI stat to make you run slower once you become fatigued...you just escape a penalty on your weapon delay if you're over 100. This is supported somewhat by this comment:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...98896207920223
Quote:
If fatigue runs out you can't jump and other stats start to go down. If your STA is under 100, you will begin to swing your weapons more slowly. Always important for small race melees to keep it over 100 STA for that reason.
Although it is also contradicted by http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ksar-Monk-1-55
Quote:
If you have under 100 stamina and this bar runs out (which can happen with heavy weapons, lack of food, being overweight, etc) you will lose other stats and be slowed (ie. Swing your weapon less times per second).
The first comment is much more specific so I wonder if perhaps it's more accurate.

Here is what I think: If you have under 100 STA, you get slowed automatically, as well as lose AGI and DEX. Now AGI determines run speed, so I think if you have 100+ STA, you will no longer be slowed but you WILL get hit in AGI so you run slower, and you will get hit more in battle because damage mitigation just got penalized (which would make sense - if you're tired, you don't dodge as often or as well IRL). The reason there's some confusion about it is because people weren't necessarily checking their inventory windows with the stats while fighting, so they noticed whether or not they have a weapon delay but not necessarily when they lost certain stats. I think perhaps the higher your STA the lesser the penalty on stats, or simply the longer you went without running out of stamina. It's unclear but the answer will likely be found in ogre warriors vs smaller race warriors debates.

Now, also for classic, it was a concern for pullers. You definitely ended up running slower and they also jumped a lot to keep ahead of mobs.

NOW. Regarding swimming and stamina. I just found this: https://www.giantbomb.com/everquest-...ark/3030-7725/
Quote:
New Playable Race: The Iksar, a lizard race that could swim without fatigue and regenerate health and mana faster than other races.
Stamina and running is mentioned in passing here from a 2013 post: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/...nerfed.205085/
Quote:
The stamina bar was used for swimming, running (especially overweight iirc), and jumping, but not for disciplines.
Most of these comments really make me think AGI gets docked when you're tired out no matter what.
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Old 10-24-2017, 02:03 PM
Naethyn Naethyn is online now
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This would be amazing and is easily the biggest thing I was disappointed to find out when starting p99. Not classic stamina! I often joke about how weapons aren't viable because they are too heavy, while explaining the benefits of a light weapon.
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Old 10-24-2017, 02:27 PM
Rygar Rygar is offline
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Take this link for what it's worth:
http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-2620.html

Quote:
Palarran
07-28-2003, 07:59 AM
100 seems to be one of several "important" points in a stat. Around 100 cha (varies slightly) you'll get the best prices from indifferent vendors; at 100 stamina fatigue affects nothing except your ability to jump;
That is from Druid's Grove, so I would assume if being fatigued after 100 stamina affected run speed it may be mentioned (i.e. could slow down your kiting / quadding). Not sure what would be draining a druid's yellow bar besides jumping though?

Tried searching for some other info, but it was covered from your links essentially.
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:12 PM
Sorn Sorn is offline
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Rygar, that post is from 2003 and therefore suspect! Also, I can tell you from being a cleric on live that we don't know jack about the nuances of stamina, especially since clerics and druids both have invigor.

I am doing some video watching now. Here's one where you can actually see the player's stamina depleting with each hit by a visible amount (when he's not running around getting cool camera shots): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNbfLOp1mgM
(The video is dated from 2007 but the poster mentions they're old raid videos he found on an old computer. I believe these are all from Luclin.)

You can also see it regens quite fast, though whether that's from buffs or zings I can't really tell. On a raid you can bet that's the first thing they'd buff to high heaven.

Same for his other videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_zqEEHnVmA (Dain, as a monk - really hard to see)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpaqYUqel1A (Vindi - you can see it pretty well)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gJ6S-fQEUI (Telkorenar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeCpvEpoyn8 (Lendiniaria the Keeper)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULXGorglosA (Trakanon - toon did a lot of running around, not sure he fought much)
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:33 PM
Rygar Rygar is offline
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I had posted some links in Server Chat thread about Classic EQ videos. This one shows first person perspective from what appears to be a ranger in Sleeper's Tomb. Grainy video, but maybe you can tell better than me... but I didn't see the yellow bar deplete at all, there were some periods he was doing extended melee damage (you could see his damage and first person swings). He even swaps to inventory at some point where you could maybe determine what his stats are (may have to hit the enhance button a few times...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA7e...ature=youtu.be
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:48 PM
Sorn Sorn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I had posted some links in Server Chat thread about Classic EQ videos. This one shows first person perspective from what appears to be a ranger in Sleeper's Tomb. Grainy video, but maybe you can tell better than me... but I didn't see the yellow bar deplete at all, there were some periods he was doing extended melee damage (you could see his damage and first person swings). He even swaps to inventory at some point where you could maybe determine what his stats are (may have to hit the enhance button a few times...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA7e...ature=youtu.be
I saw that one and the problem is that stamina is yellow and the background of the bar is light grey...so with that quality you can't tell a damn thing.

I found this 'ding 60!' screenshot after some googling! You can see it was a tough battle...

ding60.jpg
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