Game Mechanics: Sneak pulling revisited

[Pyrocat]

Great find! If you'll allow me to sum up some of the research so far, I feel like we have a very strong case for sneak pulling being classic.

Earliest post on that thread that mentions sneak pulling is Sept 28th, 2000.

Can you sneak pull?

I saw mention on a rogue board that if you attack with
a thrown weapon, and press sneak before it hits, then
you can split a spawn. Supposedly only the mob you
hit goes aggro on you.

Can anyone confirm that this actually works?

So we know it's in-era that throwing a weapon (or shooting a bow) and then hitting sneak before it lands works. It sounds like it changed at some point from throwing weapons breaking sneak -> throwing weapons eventually didn't break sneak, which would be an even bigger boon.

Originally Posted by Monkly Business OP, last edited 6/23/2002

4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.

With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.

So we know that at least by June 23rd, 2002 throwing weapons didn't break sneak. But that's not in era. However, here's a post quoted earlier from the TTLG forums dated December 11th, 2000:

Originally Posted by TTLG forums, 12/11/2000

Now I've given you all the information necessary for the single pull. Let me describe the rogue implementation of this, the sneak pull.

This works best with a SoW, but I've had it work without. First, sneak up to bow range to the monster. Hide is not necessary. Because sneak reduces aggro range, even from the front, you should still not have aggroed anything. Shoot an arrow at the one you want, and immediately back off. The one you shot will come running, and if you can get far enough away before it comes and hits you and removes sneak, its friends will not. The bow works better than throwing because it lets you stay further back, but I've heard you can get this to work with throwing as well.

I have successfully used the sneak pull in Cazic-Thule at the lower Tae room and at the Burynai Mines in Frontier Mountains. I'm sure it would work in other places as well; I just never had the need.

That seems like solid evidence that sneak would not break from shooting a bow, and likely throwing weapons, in-era. Here's another piece of evidence:

Originally Posted by Safehouse Guide to Sneak Pulling, 6/11/2001 (repost, likely earlier)

Written by Kuurus IceBear

Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

Here's another smaller piece of evidence:

Originally Posted by Safehouse Guide to pulling, 3/22/2000 (repost, likely earlier) edited 5/4/2000

.) Pull
Once your group is informed, pull the mobs using one of these methods:
- use a bow, or even throwing weapons
- run past them, thus aggo’ing them
- run up to them, and attack them

Using a ranged attack is preferred, as you have a much greater chance of not pulling unwanted mobs.

So when exactly did the change occur? We don't know. There is a patch note from May 8th, 2002 that

Sneak only breaks when a character is hit, not when he hits someone.

which would indicate that previous to 5/8/2002 sneak broke when hitting someone... but there might've been an exception for ranged weapons.

Regardless of if ranged-weapons-breaking-sneak is in-era or not, there is plenty of evidence that firing a ranged weapon and then hitting sneak (if sneak was successful) reduced the aggro radius of your tag in classic EQ.

[Keebz]

^ this is all excellent. You may want to add links for each of those quotes.

I'm also curious if anyone asked on thesafehouse forums if there's more proof out there? As a rogue on live in classic, I'm kind of flabbergasted there isn't stronger documentation. I'm pretty sure I learned about this from the forums, and I quit my rogue long before Luclin came out.

[DMN]

Looks like a lot of contemporary testimony contradicts the idea sneak pulling ever being a thing, a least before they made changes to sneak only breaking when you got hit.

There were countless times back in the day where people would say things like:
"Casting a spell will pull less/more adds compared to X"
"aggro pulling will pull less/more adds compared to X"
" throwing/shooting will pull less/more adds compared to X"

Notice the pattern?

(Aggro pulling is just walking into aggro range while visible, sometimes called "face pulling" back then.)


Thing is, I'm pretty sure this all was the result of people not recognizing the level difference of the mobs they had this first "experience" with, yet they would always swear up and down that "that's the way it works". They didn't recognize that just gaining a level or 2 can completely change how man adds you got on a certain pull, or that many mobs have a wide range of levels while conning exactly the same. This lead to a lot of people claiming "myths" as gospel. or sometimes they just repeat the myth they heard someone else say because they wan to seem knowledgeable.

[Keebz]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thing is, I'm pretty sure this all was the result of people not recognizing...

Conjecture, no matter how plausible, isn't useful in this context. Please feel free to provide proof.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Conjecture, no matter how plausible, isn't useful in this context. Please feel free to provide proof.

Proof of what? I merely suggested a common misconception in the game that would lead to a lot of people swearing something works, often time contradicting one another yet very sure their experience is true/correct, when in fact it was something else entirely going on.

[ReoDobbs]

Bump.

Outside of DMN's rant about how he has a "feeling" that others had a "feeling" of something he doesn't "feel" is not classic, a lot of solid information here that should at least be addressed if not changed.

[eisley]

Sneak pulling is classic, yeah What wasn't classic is standing up while sneaking causing guaranteed memblur on mobs with backs turned to you.

[eisley]

One last try before filed under "Hopeless, pending update."

[Buellen]

So I recently returned and startedf playing my ranger again and decided to test out how sneak pulling WAS working on project 1999 Currently.

Test 1 sneak on shoot at the 4 spawn behind bandit hill in west karana level 16 ranger 100 range bow 150 range arrows. shooting face up hill shot closes bandit 3 come 4th one furthest one back does not come. Repeated this 4 times to make sure behavior was corret.

test 2 2 spawn bandits half way along road to north karana just north of the 4 spawns 4 tent bandit camp. these two always pulling no matter if i had sneak on they are simply to close together to sneak pull.

Leveled my ranger to level 17 move lake of ill omen.

Test 3 4 spawn of iksar bandits /mauraders. building half way across the valley to cabals city. two of spawns are further than other 2 spawn who stand next to each other in a doorway of ruined building.

Could easily pull singly the two farthest spawns with sneak on. AS in west karana if the mobs are close to each other you will pull them together even if you have sneak on.


As some have posted Distance between the mobs you are trying to split is what really matter when sneak pulling.

[Rygar]

I know pretty done to death, but stumbled across this post on Dolalin's archive engine. Seems to imply that hide (i.e. invis) was a factor and that no mob you are pulling in the group can see through your invis or it will fail. Basically throw an item (which disengages hide/sneak) and while it is in the air but before hitting target you need to successfully reapply. Post is dated 3/16/2001:

https://web.archive.org/web/20030414...icID=172.topic

I was reading some posts on the safehouse rogue and noticed a thread about the sneak/pulling technique. After undesrtanding how it works, I realized our bolt spells could allow the same kind of single pulling provided you have a partner that can invis.

Here is how sneak pull works : you have two or more mobs at the same spot that can't be pulled single directly but that don't see through sneak, and you have enough room to throw something at them from long range. You turn sneak/hide on, wait for it to refresh, then throw a long range weapon at one of the mobs and just after pressing the range attack hotkey you press the hide/sneak one (with hide first). If you had enough range, you become hidden before the ranged attack hits your target. Thus, the mob comes single.