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  #91  
Old 07-17-2019, 11:12 AM
Halfcell Halfcell is offline
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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Well I beg to differ, gear in classic and fear/hate were regularlly raided during kunark for end game players, if you look at warrior bis in kunark at leastg 3 items are pre kunark, while if you look at bis warrior velious 0 are. And that's an almost unfair take because they wear pure AC and that is the one stat kunark bumped with class armor, so thats with a full set of colbot, if you want stats, you're going to be wearing 3-5 more peaces of classic blazing ro or hate armor. I mean just look at the monk linked above, its wearing like 90% classic gearz.
This may be true, though I don't think warriors from Kunark to Velious are the best example. Bosses in velious hit unbelievably hard, and they needed a huge gear boost to even be able to survive a round of AoW or Vyemm, or even a flurry drake.

I also dont think comparing BiS to BiS is really fair. In PoP the lower tier Tranquility armors would be near BiS in previous expansions. A character in "damn good" Kunark gear wasn't swapping out for Thurg gear.

My point wasn't that expansions don't inflate gear, my point was that PoP inflated it so much that it made everything before it obsolete, and that this started a brutal trend that has harmed MMOs ever since.

I watched it happen on Agnarr. Vex Thal gear getting swapped out for drops from low ass planes bosses, and by PoTime literally no one wearing a stitch from any previous expansion with the one exception of the Aten Ha Ra neck.

One example, though this is an edit so I dont have time to find the link, was a 2h axe ... something or other Windblade, that dropped from trash in a low level plane, that was as good as NToV and Vex Thal 2 handers. Or the Cord Hilted Spike Driver, every bit as good as a Blade of Carnage, but it dropped from a miniboss in Plane of Innovation.


Found it, it's just Windblade
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=16695

Why ever go back to Velious or Luclin when XP trash drops this shit?
Last edited by Halfcell; 07-17-2019 at 11:29 AM..
  #92  
Old 07-17-2019, 12:19 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is offline
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One of the lessons I wish the gaming industry could learn from p99 is that it ran the first two expansions for what, 8 years? and the economy was strong all the way through. Static player base. Active community. And all with zero expansions, just bug fixes and ascetic changes.

Very impressive. It seems like games think they need to make huge updates to keep players interested when really, just tightening up the graphics on level 3 for a few years while we re-roll and re-roll and re-roll, is a perfectly balanced and IMO better way to manage mmo expansions.
  #93  
Old 07-17-2019, 12:25 PM
Halfcell Halfcell is offline
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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
One of the lessons I wish the gaming industry could learn from p99 is that it ran the first two expansions for what, 8 years? and the economy was strong all the way through. Static player base. Active community. And all with zero expansions, just bug fixes and ascetic changes.

Very impressive. It seems like games think they need to make huge updates to keep players interested when really, just tightening up the graphics on level 3 for a few years while we re-roll and re-roll and re-roll, is a perfectly balanced and IMO better way to manage mmo expansions.

This I completely agree with.
  #94  
Old 07-17-2019, 12:26 PM
Immok Immok is offline
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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
One of the lessons I wish the gaming industry could learn from p99 is that it ran the first two expansions for what, 8 years? and the economy was strong all the way through. Static player base. Active community. And all with zero expansions, just bug fixes and ascetic changes.

Very impressive. It seems like games think they need to make huge updates to keep players interested when really, just tightening up the graphics on level 3 for a few years while we re-roll and re-roll and re-roll, is a perfectly balanced and IMO better way to manage mmo expansions.
Would P99 be so successful though if it charged a monthly fee? Once people are paying for something they get a lot more demanding.
Last edited by Immok; 07-17-2019 at 12:27 PM.. Reason: typos
  #95  
Old 07-17-2019, 01:03 PM
NegaStoat NegaStoat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Immok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Would P99 be so successful though if it charged a monthly fee? Once people are paying for something they get a lot more demanding.
I'm an old school gamer and the service that is most important to me when it comes to paying a monthly subscription is anti cheat and rules enforcement. When I sit down to play a session of a game I'm paying for, I have expectations from the game I am playing that I will enjoy what it offers and that the consequences for people breaking the printed rules and ruining my enjoyment are real.

Older games like Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, City of Heroes and even World of Warcraft through most of pre burning crusade absolutely dropped the hammer down on asshats breaking the rules and harassing people if they were given evidence. People employing cheats or attempting to, and this included scams, frauds, or swindles, also lost their crap on the first confirmed report. Full stop - not a temp ban.

Considering the player base we have on P1999, a LOT of leniency is being offered to repeat offenders that absolutely know what they are doing, especially with the raid scene, and especially with key targets for highly prized loot drops (fountain campers, anyone?) as well as zone abuse with power leveling sessions.

The short of it is, the P1999 staff isn't prepared to offer what commercial servers once did for this game format. Even if a monthly sub was involved.
  #96  
Old 07-17-2019, 05:26 PM
Zuranthium Zuranthium is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trelaboon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Classic really sucks as a melee. Weapon choices were horrible. Warriors were okay with Yaks, and monks were okay with fists, but Rogues really sucked
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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
it was an era of mortal men
Yep. If things in the game are going to be unbalanced, I would prefer casters being more powerful then melee. Magic is supposed to represent something more powerful than mere man, and in terms of game design it means more interdependence. Rogues were indeed horrible in classic until they got Evade and the backstab buff, but they are perfectly fine once those changes get put in. They become OP in the expansions with their chart-topping DPS and self-healing items.

Kunark is definitely better than Velious though and a fairly reasonable place to be in terms of overall balance and world design, if going strictly in terms of "in-era design". The itemization in Velious hurts the game way too much, the raids are more boring with the overinflated HP of the mobs, and it's a visually less interesting place overall. Even compare Temple of Veeshan to Veeshan's Peak. The former is mostly just flat and nonsensical. All those random, generic halls that dragons stand around in. It doesn't have a lot of conceptual depth - it's too World of Warcraft. Veeshan's Peak feels more like a place that dragons actually live and it's more interesting to journey through.

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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
If it were up to me, Kunark would be a level 55 expansion that would have made it perfection, and velious would be the level 60 one.
I like the general idea you're getting at here, but strictly in terms of classic design, this would make Kunark worse. Removing 5 levels doesn't make melee that much less powerful, because their power increase comes mainly from gear + abilities they get by level 55, whereas casters losing their spells and being resisted WAY more by higher level mobs puts them at a big disadvantage. That is, except for Clerics, who are already super problematic because of the C-heal mechanic.

There would be an increased number of raid targets or even general upper end grouping targets that slow would become unreliable on, which means more Clerics and pointless downtime would be required for the boring C-heal chain. Not to mention how Wizards would fare without Lure of Ice and even getting resisted sometimes on the weaker Lures. Ick.
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  #97  
Old 07-18-2019, 12:47 AM
zodium zodium is offline
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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
levels =/= gearing in terms of devaluing older expansions. Levels will trivialize older content but gear can make it outright irrelevant.
sure, leveling will "trivialize" older content while gear will make it "outright irrelevant." these are definitely real different things with real differences that have real gameplay implications, rather than a graphite-thin rhetorical straw for which you have reflexively grasped to momentarily convince yourself the torrent of chatter you're emitting has some connection to the reality in which the rest of us live.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
One of the lessons I wish the gaming industry could learn from p99 is that it ran the first two expansions for what, 8 years? and the economy was strong all the way through. Static player base. Active community. And all with zero expansions, just bug fixes and ascetic changes.

Very impressive. It seems like games think they need to make huge updates to keep players interested when really, just tightening up the graphics on level 3 for a few years while we re-roll and re-roll and re-roll, is a perfectly balanced and IMO better way to manage mmo expansions.
hmm yes this must have continued to happen in spite of velious, a badly itemized expansion.
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Last edited by zodium; 07-18-2019 at 12:52 AM..
  #98  
Old 07-18-2019, 01:01 AM
zodium zodium is offline
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maybe the most bizarre thing about putting velious as the cutoff point for where the power creep 'all went wrong' is that luclin was the expansion where they changed the business model from a more or less holistically designed world to a theme park progression with independent content islands, which is the entire reason this server exists in the first place.
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  #99  
Old 07-18-2019, 05:10 AM
enjchanter enjchanter is offline
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Originally Posted by Endonde [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I know it isn't a popular opinion around these parts but Velious is a really shitty expansion, it doesn't offer much outside of raiding which to me is the worst part of Everquest, Luclin and Kunark are far superior, even PoP which was primarily a raiding expansion similar to Velious made the raiding seem like a journey, rather than Velious which is just oh look here are a bunch of dragons for you!
Amen brother
Kunark forever !
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  #100  
Old 07-18-2019, 05:45 AM
fortior fortior is offline
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It's a bad idea when your goal is to increase game expansion sales, but I honestly think it's okay if some rare drops from tough bosses stay relevant forever, or at least for a very long time.

It's dumb that a sword dropped by a lore-important deity gets outclassed by trash drops from random dime a dozen dragons three expansions down the line
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