Paladin stats & race

[FatherSioux]

Starting stats certainly are splitting hairs. Building your toon to be able to withstand the extreme situations is the way to go. More mana allows you to withstand these scenarios. Everyone saying that more mana isn't important is speaking to the ho-hum grind group where 99% of play falls, but when the going gets tough you can save the day with more mana as a Paladin. Wisdom build is the way to go without a doubt. Human for Fashion Quest, Dwarf for Min/Max.

[Boarder981]

Originally Posted by FatherSioux [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Human for Fashion Quest, Dwarf for Min/Max.

I did consider Human, as their stats are pretty even and their plate look is decent. However, that bucket helm is hideous! Yeah I know, the Velious Dragon helm looks great, but I imagine I'd be wearing/using the Deepwater Helm for a long time... ugh!

Also bad night vision. Yes I know it's not as big of an issue on P99, but with my Barb it was always nice to have at least infravision spell up.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Boarder981 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I did consider Human, as their stats are pretty even and their plate look is decent. However, that bucket helm is hideous! Yeah I know, the Velious Dragon helm looks great, but I imagine I'd be wearing/using the Deepwater Helm for a long time... ugh!

Also bad night vision. Yes I know it's not as big of an issue on P99, but with my Barb it was always nice to have at least infravision spell up.

Thurgadin dragon helm is extremely easy to get. The mq is like 1k and you just need kindly coldain faction. No reason you can’t get this in the 40s or sooner if you farm faction. Dragon look is simply just turning in the helm via the custom helms quest.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Boarder981 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I did consider Human, as their stats are pretty even and their plate look is decent. However, that bucket helm is hideous! Yeah I know, the Velious Dragon helm looks great, but I imagine I'd be wearing/using the Deepwater Helm for a long time... ugh!

Also bad night vision. Yes I know it's not as big of an issue on P99, but with my Barb it was always nice to have at least infravision spell up.

That was the main reason I rolled Erudite; the other plate helm models were annoying (IMHO). You gotta go with whatever you like the look of the most though. Swapping out for helm healing or only having the DW on while soloing is easy enough.

There are plenty of cheap ways to get greater light sources (most the revamped runnyeye items...alloy helm, necklace, mask, etc) and a few cheap infravision ones. I always have one of these on me for those weird situations where its difficult to see. Way easier than swapping-in/out my Shield of the Stalwart Seas.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Glowing_Stone_Band


A Kobold Jester Crown is about 900p and gives a ton of charisma plus passable AC. No graphic so it's a fashionquest win. Not a bad item to have in a backpack to help avoid those crit lull resists or just wear as a helm.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Kobold_Jester%27s_Crown

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Boarder981 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. How exactly do Lull mechanics work? It’s been so long that I don’t remember the details
2. How much CHA is necessary for Lull to almost always work?
3. How much does DEX actually affect proc rate, and at what point do you actually notice a difference?

With respect to statistics, EQ's a big-numbers game. 10 charisma here, 5 dexterity there won't make any substantial difference. One of the few exceptions of this is having less than 75 agility, which incurs a fairly large penalty. Increasing DEX from 100 to 200 might roughly double your weapon special effect rate. If you want to stack dexterity, go big or don't bother.

Lull-type spells reduce aggro radius. Higher ranks of the spell reduce that radius more than lower ranks. "Lull" itself is often ineffective, "Soothe" works decently, and "calm" is usually enough even at high levels. "Pacify" is generally unnecessary. No amount of charisma will wholly eliminate lull resists, or the occasional critical-resist where monsters attack. At high levels, some monsters are resistant enough that the lull spell line becomes ineffective as a splitting tool, especially for Paladins who have few means of dealing with an unwanted multi-pull. You should not use the lull line if you cannot survive the results of a critical fail, except as a desperation effort when no other options are available.

Danth

[White_knight]

This has been a great debate thread. Sorry been MIA with IRL.

Eager to read all replies though.

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As usual Jimjam hits the nail on the head. Repeatedly.

My paladin needs more wisdom/mana, but I rarely find myself full mana with the limited pool I have. This is especially true after hitting 59 and getting the celestial cleansing spell. That heal is just too efficient and nice (1.5 sec cast) to not use routinely on both self and group mates. If I could choose between having 100ac or 60 more wisdom, however, I’d opt for the ac. Thankfully such trade offs don’t really exist on p99 without making some extreme choices (that also involves very high end raid gear).

For now my pathetic 1500 mana at level 60 gets the job done well. Threat is CHEAP for us to generate. Big mana expenditures for me are the heals I toss around, buffs I refresh, and stuns I strategically use. In a fast paced group I like to hover between 70-80% mana. It leaves enough reserve to heal/root/stun/calm liberally if the situation calls for it and enough mana deficit to capitalize on those moments I have to opportunity to sit on my ass for a pinch to get mana back. If I get to full mana, I preemptively refresh a round of Divine Str buffs +/- ghetto symbols and ac as needed.

Same concept with the shaman ... I try never to be full mana unless I’ve already refreshed every buff that isn’t already fresh.

Caveat: Warrior is what I take to primary raids. Paladin is for group fun or trashy clear raids without massive hitting raid targets at the end of them. If my paladin were raid exclusive I’d put more emphasis on wisdom. Those heals come in handy.

If you have a level 60 Paladin with 1500 mana you're handicapping yourself for "burst" heal potential, and I would go to say your stance on this subject is probably based inherently in the fact you know you have, OR you're using a Paladin simply as a sub-par warrior with easy agro mechanic, which there is nothing wrong with that.

A 1500 mana Paladin would be abysmal to play at 60 vrs a 3000-3500 mana pool Paladin, sorry - but nothing you can say can explain this away. You're burning 15% of you mana pool to cast a single HoT, where as a 3500 mana paladin is blowing 6.4%, how is that good thing lol?

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I said soothe, not pacify. Soothe works on mobs up to 55 and costs only 30 mana. Soothe + atone is a solid synergy, though I appreciate a little team work is required.

I talk about mana regen, not because I suggest wearing it for any one particular build (obviously all builds should if they can), but because mana regen is the limiting factor on how many spells you can cast across an extended period of time.

Given the same mana regen both Paladins will be casting the same number of spells. The exception is the wisdom paladin gets a one time boost of whatever their difference in mana pool is (and only if he gets really low on mana). He won't get that benefit again unless the low wis build paladin ends up sitting around at full mana, which if he does I'd ascribe to being a player mistake, not a build error.

Always thought Soothe capped at 40? if not - well there you go learned me something new, or that needs to get fixed on the server.

If both Paladin's are starting off as OOM and have to consecutively cast spells as they regen mana, than yes that's true. Where it deviates is if you're starting point is 2000 mana, or 3500 mana, then effectively a mana build Paladin has 1500 more mana each time they med up to expend.

2000mana /225 mana cost of HoT = 8.8 casts <-- Sacrifices the extra heals for maybe a little extra mitigation that doesn't really matter for the tier level of mobs most Paladins tank.
3500mana /225 mana cost of HoT = 15.5 casts <--Far more effective on raids as they can take on a roll of patch healing/far more effective in groups when needed to heal.

So no, you're wrong that they have the same basis of healing potential due to Mana regen alone, that only stands true if they are starting at OOM.


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I think ultimately the dance is danced on this subject and those that get it, get it, and those that don't, don't. "Splitting hairs" on starting stats is def. a good comment that was made.

I think the only TERRIBLE race choice you can make as a Paladin is Half-Elfs because that 60 something starting wisdom would be painful to over come.

Regardless of whats been discussed, a dex build vrs a mana build vrs a ac Paladin build will pretty much tank normal groups without much difference if all the tank is required to do is keep agro and be healed.

The split of difference seems to be:
(1) Excessively going for Mana (more healing/stunning)
or
(2) AC/HP (slightly more mitigation)

There's merit for both sides, but I personally think and have experienced that having a low mana pool on your Paladin is not optimal in this era of Velious.

But it's good to see the discussion take place.

[Jimjam]

TBH I may be wrong on Soothe; I know I had used it a lot in Seb in the past, but that was a long time ago and may have been changed. If so I take back that point.

[Troxx]

Incoming small novel.

Originally Posted by White_knight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you have a level 60 Paladin with 1500 mana you're handicapping yourself for "burst" heal potential, and I would go to say your stance on this subject is probably based inherently in the fact you know you have, OR you're using a Paladin simply as a sub-par warrior with easy agro mechanic, which there is nothing wrong with that.

I have a 60 paladin which was my most recently created toon. It’s not my primary raid toon. He’s a fun alt, and no he is neither geared to be a warrior nor played as such. He’s a half elf and started off with a 35 wisdom disadvantage compared to high elf.

I made him half elf for 2 reason:

1) Tunare Diety for Natures Defender Quest. It looks cool as hell, was super easy to quest (he’s an alt - wasn’t going to do epic), has 45 ac (stupid strong) along with a comparable to epic stat spread and proc. If this wasn’t in game I’d have rolled dwarf.
2) FashionQuest. I hate the way high elf males in plate look. I gave up 35 wisdom for a tradeoff of +15 str +5stam/agility, +15 dex. The stat trade offs are debatable (I would have preferred the wisdom) but most importantly I don’t have run around looking like a half elf male in plate. Looking the way you want is the single most important stat. 10 of my starting stats were wisdom.

His magelo: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mithromir

If he were a high elf geared as he currently is he’d have 1975 mana from the 35 extra wisdom. I’ve already got my bp gems (need to give the stolen fungi back to my monk), the finances to buy the cloak, and nearly enough saves up for Narandi Crown. I need to tap into my inner “not lazy” to go get my 7/6 talisman. Imminent upgrades put me at this:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mithromirnext

If I were a high elf paladin I’d be at 2400 mana with these non-raid upgrades on the horizon. Othmir prexus totem next goal? 2600 mana.

Really my mana boils down to refusing to be a high elf and being unwilling to wear gear like a zero ac 7 wis/str mask as a tank class.

This whole discussion kicked off after you posted this magelo and asked what the first thing we noticed was:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Salahdin

The first thing I noticed was your bad ac despite clearly having some pretty decent overall gear quality. Clicking through your gear choices quickly explained it. You’re wearing a few dumb pieces that are dragging you down.

A 1500 mana Paladin would be abysmal to play at 60 vrs a 3000-3500 mana pool Paladin, sorry - but nothing you can say can explain this away. You're burning 15% of you mana pool to cast a single HoT, where as a 3500 mana paladin is blowing 6.4%, how is that good thing lol?

Heal over time has a 30 second cool down. You can’t exactly chain cast it even if you want to. Wave of Healing is actually weaker than wiki places it. It’s much less efficient than heal over time and only has situational use, the most important of which I’d argue is threat snap while topping off some group health. 220 heal isn’t going to save anyone. That leaves us with superior heal which is generally on my bar for emergencies where someone needs a faster blast heal. If I’m grouping with a healer worth their salt and not on a raid I don’t keep it mem’d. It’s got a slow cast time and if the ench is going down it usually won’t land in time - that’s what LoH is for. It’s also more expensive to cast and heals for a lot less total than our heal over time. That heal over time should be the only heal any 59+ knight uses outside of extraordinary circumstances. For those circumstances I keep other heals loaded but they have significant drawbacks in terms of insufficiency, inefficiency, and for one of them in being slow to cast.

So what does that leave us with?

-an amazing heal over time that is fast to cast and efficient with a 30 sec lockout
-the need to hold threat which is easy and cheap with a 12 mana spell
-the ability to stun as desired or needed (I keep 2 up always)
-the ability to root as needed
-lulls (not expensive)
-buffs to cast/refresh as needed
-rez to do rarely as needed
-a targeted rune which does actually have some uses. If puller is bringing in a few - tag me with rune and mobs will run to you instead

Having more total mana let’s you cast none of these more often over time unless you or your group has enough down time that one paladin can Med longer while the other would be sitting around full mana and not climb any further. My experience is that this scenario is the exception, not the norm. I usually roll with fast paced groups. The bigger pool just gives you more total reserve with which to operate. In a raid environment on big targets with aoe damage, that deeper pool is critically important.

If you play your paladin like a holy healing Gandalf with chain casting wave of healing and throwing around superior heals like they’re going out of style you’re just simply going to find yourself out of mana. If you’re using that extra mana on extra unnecessary aggro ... you’re going to just run out sooner and either force your group to stop to wait on you to Med or find yourself so low on mana you can’t do anything but flash of light. When that happens you’re NO better than a warrior with less mitigation, fewer hitpoints, and less dps.

My opinion is that knighting properly is balancing your mana usage while effectively using the tools at your disposal and keeping enough always on reserve in the tank to deal with the unexpected when it happens. So far I’ve gotten really good with working that balance with 1500 mana. I’m about to have 2k - or 2 extra HoTs in my hip pocket.

Mana is good. Wisdom is good. Our spellbook is what distinguishes us. At the end of the day, however, we’re still tanks. Tanks with low ac are mana sponges and tanks with low hp are less efficient to heal.

[Vexenu]

If you're going to play a Paladin like a Cleric, why not just roll a Cleric to begin with? Yeah, Paladin spells are awesome, but they are awesome within the context of also being a strong tank. There are very few times as a (PvE) Paladin where having a huge Mana pool means the difference between life and death for you or your group. In contrast, AC/HP come into play with every hit you take. If you're sacrificing too much AC/HP for WIS to raise your own Mana pool, all you're effectively doing is stealing more of your healer's Mana by being a less efficient tank. In other words, the trade-off is at best zero sum, and in reality a net loss to the group because a Cleric/Shaman is equipped to utilize their Mana much more effectively than a Paladin. If you actually think about it, the correct build is to have "just enough" WIS/Mana. Just enough meaning you never find yourself running OOM at inopportune times for 99% of your gameplay. Because everything beyond that "just enough" threshold is pure waste and represents item slots that could have been better utilized to make you a more efficient and durable tank. Which, as we established at the outset, should be your primary concern, or else your should reroll a Cleric.