The Solo dungeon crawl

[elwing]

The same for utility, but way more fragile and with less regen means... So face tanking way less but able to do pretty much the sane when using fear kiting or such... Just a tad slower

[Teppler]

Do yourself a favor and make a shaman for face tank leveling. You’ll thank me later.

[jolanar]

There is this weird idea on the forum about how shamans are some kind of melee class. That's very misleading in my opinion. They are a caster/priest class that can sometimes stand in melee range when a mob is slowed. After like, level 30, your damage will primarily come from dots and your pet. Root is amazing but you will not have the mana to be splitting dungeon rooms with more than 2 mobs without a clicky damage item (jbb or epic), hell even 2 mobs will be very difficult in the lower levels without running out of mana. What shamans can do with a 3 minute root and epic is far far different than what they can before that.

Don't play a shaman if you want a melee class. Also, don't play a shaman if you want a dungeon crawling class that can level up that way.

OP if you want a melee that can dungeon crawl you are really limited to either Monk or Shadowknight.

Obviously an Enchanter or Necromancer will blow both of those class out of the water as far as what dungeons you can crawl solo.

[Arkanjil]

Well said Jolanar, totally agree with you on Shaman. Once a shaman has their epic and/or jbb , then lvl 60 with torpor, then can do some really cool stuff, but they are limited before that.

If you wanted to go melee and dungeon crawl, the easiest options would be shadow knight and monk, since they can FD pull. After that, paladin and ranger could be possible, depending on the dungeon. None of these will crawl a dungeon quickly, but that doesn’t sound like the goal. I’ve also crawled Seb on my bard doing, doing melee/dot dmg until I need to heal, then mez mob and Regen up. That can be kinda fun as well.

[Teppler]

I’ll write something up detailed soon. Shaman are high voltage. Although they have better ways to solo eventually, they do the face tanking solo up to 60 better than any melee.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by jolanar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is this weird idea on the forum about how shamans are some kind of melee class. That's very misleading in my opinion. They are a caster/priest class that can sometimes stand in melee range when a mob is slowed.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=291394
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=248914
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=48014

First three links from google search, all with the same conclusion: Not a melee class, but okayish when wielding certain proc weapons and tanks fine versus slowed target while pet attacks and dots tick away.

Originally Posted by jolanar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

After like, level 30, your damage will primarily come from dots and your pet.

The same level when Shadow Knights can start dungeon crawling safely, but their dots and pets still won't compensate for a lack of melee damage when attempting to facetank. Not until around level 50 does that changeover start to occur and, even then, their melee output still won't be all that great until the skill tables update.

Originally Posted by jolanar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't play a shaman if you want a melee class. Also, don't play a shaman if you want a dungeon crawling class that can level up that way.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=140014

Old 02-18-2014, 06:32 PM
Danth
Planar Protector

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,404
Default
More to the point, a solo Shaman is more of a melee than a solo Shadow Knight in that the Shaman *can* reliably go toe-to-toe with stuff if he wants to. Solo Shadow Knights mostly fear-kite.

Originally Posted by jolanar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP if you want a melee that can dungeon crawl you are really limited to either Monk or Shadowknight.

So agreed, to an extent. The actual process of dungeon crawling as a Shaman would be difficult under normal circumstances, but no more difficult than a Shadow Knight having enough space to solo their single pull in the same dungeon they crawled through repeatedly, searching for such a location. The higher the level and the better the gear, the less this becomes true for both. But given how (over)populated zones are now, space has suddenly opened up, enough to fear kite and facetank singles without worrying about adds. Getting singles as a Shaman shouldn't be difficult unless in zones like Kaesora, mid-level dungeons where Shadow Knights can move about freely but are limited for solo options until mobs give minimal, if any, experience. There are a few exceptions in Kaesora but again, it's less about crawling for Shadow Knights and more about pulling to a crawlspace.

As a workaround, Shamans can root and zone out for singles, slowly working their way deeper into a dungeon one kill at a time; Shadow Knights can use snare to do the same without worrying about Feign Death fails. This is truer now more than before, what with really fast zone times.

[loramin]

I think a huge part of the disconnect here is that Shaman solo differently at different levels. At level 1 every class tanks, and at level 60 (with Torpor) Shaman again do lots of tanking. But in-between?

For large, pivotal chunks of our leveling we can tank, but it's generally a bad idea (though it does vary by mob and your exact level). In general stuff just hits for too much damage if you tank, even with slow, and it takes too much mana to heal that damage. We root/rot instead to avoid that damage.

So Shaman aren't just one thing, and I think that explains the different responses here. From start to finish we're capable of tanking, but at the same time face-tanking is an inefficient way to level for many levels. That makes Shaman perfect for this dungeon crawl idea in a way, but also a poor choice if you really want to face tank the whole time.

[Danth]

That's the thing Loramin, having to tank is just as inefficient for the regular melee types. They have to absorb those same big hits (and more of them due to no slow), and might not have any heal spells to top up health with afterward. The difference is that the melees have little choice but to suck it up, while the Shaman has the more efficient root-based option staring him in the face. Ie, you're not wrong, you're very much right--just remember to apply it to everyone. Even without level 60 and Torpor, the Shaman still gets slow, regen, and decent heals in due time. Want a direct comparison from when the wife and I were leveling our Shadow Knight and Shaman (circa 2012)?

Because of our life (a newborn in the house) at that time both of us had to solo a lot, sometimes alternating one on here while the other took care of the daughter. We solo'd major portions of every level, sometimes the majority, at least into the 40's.

--Can't compare for the teens, my SK was an older, existing alt of mine that was already level 20 before the wife created her Shaman.

--During the low 20's the Shadow Knight had the advantage, especially during the 22-24 period where it could fear-kite and before the Shaman had canni. For that brief period my SK could level quicker than the wife's Shaman even in spite of the 40% penalty hybrids had at the time. From 24 to 29 the Shaman was roughly even in exp-gain rate, meaning the SK was still killing more due again to the now-removed experience penalty. The SK overwhelmingly fear-kited, and wasn't usually doing it in dungeon zones.

--From 29 onward the Shaman enjoyed a modest advantage, and from 34 onward the advantage became pronounced. By 40 there was no contest.

By 40, however, nobody really wanted to melee solo. The Shaman could do it, but as you said it was always better to play it like a caster. It could fight straight-up if it wanted to, but it never felt like there was much point in doing it that way unless the player simply felt like doing it. The Shadow Knight didn't want to melee straight-up either; the hits are high and the health recovery time--long. Until 50+, on the SK your only lifetap is a miserable 45 points, with high mana consumption. Face-tanking and spamming away with lifetap to keep going meant lengthy downtime.

--At 60 the Shadow Knight can get into camps and break camps much more easily than the Shaman. It's a great class for getting around and seeing parts of the game that few other players get to see. Once camp's broken and settled the Shaman's much stronger, whether it chooses to play as a caster or melee. It doesn't even need the meditate skill, the wife basically never sits unless she's AFK anyway.

That being said, stick those two classes together (or a Monk in place of the SK, they'll do the same stuff) and you have nearly all Norrath at your fingertips. The whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts, and as a duo we can do things that neither of us can solo.

Basically, I was trying to answer the OP's question within its parameters: If he wants to solo and do it in melee, I think the Shaman will give him the best long-term service. It'd probably be dreary at lower levels so if he wants instant gratification, pick something else. In reality I don't think he should necessarily do it at all, but that isn't what he asked. The only time melee-based solo-leveling really shines in this game is when the melee has expensive high-end droppable items (fungi, haste, etc) so as to overpower the content.

Danth

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's the thing Loramin, having to tank is just as inefficient for the regular melee types. They have to absorb those same big hits (and more of them due to no slow), and might not have any heal spells to top up health with afterward. The difference is that the melees have little choice but to suck it up, while the Shaman has the more efficient root-based option staring him in the face. Ie, you're not wrong, you're very much right--just remember to apply it to everyone. Even without level 60 and Torpor, the Shaman still gets slow, regen, and decent heals in due time. Want a direct comparison from when the wife and I were leveling our Shadow Knight and Shaman (circa 2012)?

Because of our life (a newborn in the house) at that time both of us had to solo a lot, sometimes alternating one on here while the other took care of the daughter. We solo'd major portions of every level, sometimes the majority, at least into the 40's.

--Can't compare for the teens, my SK was an older, existing alt of mine that was already level 20 before the wife created her Shaman.

--During the low 20's the Shadow Knight had the advantage, especially during the 22-24 period where it could fear-kite and before the Shaman had canni. For that brief period my SK could level quicker than the wife's Shaman even in spite of the 40% penalty hybrids had at the time. From 24 to 29 the Shaman was roughly even in exp-gain rate, meaning the SK was still killing more due again to the now-removed experience penalty. The SK overwhelmingly fear-kited, and wasn't usually doing it in dungeon zones.

--From 29 onward the Shaman enjoyed a modest advantage, and from 34 onward the advantage became pronounced. By 40 there was no contest.

By 40, however, nobody really wanted to melee solo. The Shaman could do it, but as you said it was always better to play it like a caster. It could fight straight-up if it wanted to, but it never felt like there was much point in doing it that way unless the player simply felt like doing it. The Shadow Knight didn't want to melee straight-up either; the hits are high and the health recovery time--long. Until 50+, on the SK your only lifetap is a miserable 45 points, with high mana consumption. Face-tanking and spamming away with lifetap to keep going meant lengthy downtime.

--At 60 the Shadow Knight can get into camps and break camps much more easily than the Shaman. It's a great class for getting around and seeing parts of the game that few other players get to see. Once camp's broken and settled the Shaman's much stronger, whether it chooses to play as a caster or melee. It doesn't even need the meditate skill, the wife basically never sits unless she's AFK anyway.

That being said, stick those two classes together (or a Monk in place of the SK, they'll do the same stuff) and you have nearly all Norrath at your fingertips. The whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts, and as a duo we can do things that neither of us can solo.

Basically, I was trying to answer the OP's question within its parameters: If he wants to solo and do it in melee, I think the Shaman will give him the best long-term service. It'd probably be dreary at lower levels so if he wants instant gratification, pick something else. In reality I don't think he should necessarily do it at all, but that isn't what he asked. The only time melee-based solo-leveling really shines in this game is when the melee has expensive high-end droppable items (fungi, haste, etc) so as to overpower the content.

Danth

I think we violently agree with each other [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Danth]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think we violently agree with each other [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not even violently, just straight-up agreement. Just putting info and experiences out there so the OP (or any other reader) can make the most informed decision he can.

Danth