You think your luck is bad?

[Zuranthium]

People "lined up" in Guk by entering the zone and calling LFG, or by bringing a group of their own. It was not a line of individual people sitting at the SSoY or FBSS camp and doing nothing. Nor was it safe. Guk was a death box, people were dying all over the place, groups were constantly splitting up.

Yes, more and more people wanted to "camp" the SSoY and FBSS after finding out about them and where to get them, but the percentage of players who had that info/ability was still relatively small. The concept of "camping" those items also involved playing the actual game. Entering a scary dungeon and needing to work with people to survive.

Camps were inherently contested in actual Classic EQ too. Before the Play Nice Policy, people could do whatever the hell they wanted, and it was just whichever group did the most damage that got the loot rights. There was a lot of drama and it was great fun. Sure, plenty of people did go along with a general concept of "first come first serve", they didn't want to risk making enemies or getting into fights, but there was no set rule about it at all.

After the Play Nice Policy, camps were still contested by groups simply showing up. Anybody could go play in a game area if they wanted to. No single person or group could "camp" any specific spot endlessly and force everyone else to have to wait for them to leave. They had to share. Again, some people didn't want to step on any toes, and went along with a mentality of "if a group is there first we don't want to interfere", but that's not what anyone had to do if they didn't want to.

[24kanthony]

I've camped the pained soul enough to get him 16 times. I don't feel anything anymore.

[Tethler]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People "lined up" in Guk by entering the zone and calling LFG, or by bringing a group of their own. It was not a line of individual people sitting at the SSoY or FBSS camp and doing nothing. Nor was it safe. Guk was a death box, people were dying all over the place, groups were constantly splitting up.

People went TO places to go TO camps that dropped gear that they wanted. It happened. I did it. Lots of people did it. People specifically went LFG at frenzy trying to get a sash and at lord to get yaks.

Guk was not really a "death box" either. At least on my server, it was not rare to be able to run from zoneline down past the safehall without seeing a mob because there were groups all over the place killing stuff. And people sure did wait LFG at camps. I remember working up low level melee skills on the frenzy mobs with my warrior while waiting for a spot to open.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, more and more people wanted to "camp" the SSoY and FBSS after finding out about them and where to get them, but the percentage of players who had that info/ability was still relatively small. The concept of "camping" those items also involved playing the actual game. Entering a scary dungeon and needing to work with people to survive.

Just because YOU didn't know about loot, doesn't mean other's didn't. People were always talking about where they found some cool item in guild chat, in EC tunnel, RL friends that also played, etc.

Certainly the percentage of people that did this was much much lower than on P99, but to say it didn't happen at all is nonsense.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by 24kanthony [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've camped the pained soul enough to get him 16 times. I don't feel anything anymore.

Yeah, I've done it twice, and this shit is not what I would ever call "Everquest". There's no reason for the game to have something like that, and in fact it never did have any camps like this when it came out. It's just a clear case of poor design, where the EQ dev team thought they needed to make something be ultra rare in this manner for it to be "more epic", not realizing that busy work doesn't mean epic.

Imagine if all of the spirits in that area had a chance to immediately spawn Pained Soul after being killed. Instead of being an ultra boring solo camp where 1 target in the entire area is permanently hunted, and everything else is ignored, this area would instead become a place where exp groups are regularly forming; knowing they are working towards getting a rare item while leveling up together. This would be a very interesting grouping spot because of all the roamers and obscured field of vision from the ruins, adding more danger and ambiance.

Instead of being a fun place where people are constantly running around the ruins and not knowing exactly what lurks around a corner, it's just dead content. People run past this very interesting place to go to Sebelis or they sit in front of the Pained Soul spawn point. BLAH.

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just because YOU didn't know about loot, doesn't mean other's didn't. People were always talking about where they found some cool item in guild chat, in EC tunnel, RL friends that also played, etc.

Certainly the percentage of people that did this was much much lower than on P99, but to say it didn't happen at all is nonsense.

LOL, this lack of logic and twisting of words! First you try to redirect the fact of the majority of the 1999 EQ population not being aware/able to get the items into a falsely speculative claim of "me" not knowing about it. Then you try to say I claimed "it never happened at all", which shows you haven't been paying attention to what has been written ever since my first post on this subject. THEN, you completely ignore what I said about the PnP and how people behaved before and after it, which makes it look like you didn't actually play early EQ.

Finally, you completely contradict yourself, exactly describing how your own "camping" experience back then was indeed much different than the type I described in my initial thesis:

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People went TO places to go TO camps that dropped gear that they wanted. It happened. I did it. Lots of people did it. People specifically went LFG at frenzy trying to get a sash and at lord to get yaks.

Guk was not really a "death box" either. At least on my server, it was not rare to be able to run from zoneline down past the safehall without seeing a mob because there were groups all over the place killing stuff. And people sure did wait LFG at camps. I remember working up low level melee skills on the frenzy mobs with my warrior while waiting for a spot to open.

Exactly as I said, you were waiting for a GROUP. You were not trying to solo camp something, mindlessly waiting in a single-file line. You were in fact actively playing the game, because you knew it was a dangerous spot where you could possibly die, and also to curry favor with the group there, such that they would look more warmly upon you and choose you for the group after someone left.

If Guk was not a death box when you played, then what this points to is you not playing early EQ. Those zones were not crowded to the gills early on, both because not enough people were high enough level for such a thing to be possible and because most people didn't know where everything dropped, so everyone didn't hunt in the "optimal" places. Even when fast forwarding a bit more in time, to when more people did begin crowding these places, that doesn't mean they knew exactly how to play the zone and the exact pathing and such of the NPCs there. There were TONS of deadly trains in Guk.

Perhaps also your server was more crowded, but regardless, places like L-Guk were definitely not figured out right away and immediately turned into threat-less, AFK pixel farms. If you did play on an overcrowded server that had a more boring atmosphere because of it, then this just points to a design/executive flaw of EQ and how server populations should have been split sooner and/or how the content itself should have been modified. The developers themselves specifically said they didn't like how often the "camping" situation arose in the game, with too many people crowing around certain areas and groups not moving enough.

And the real reason why those things didn't get improved upon, why the developers' own vision did not become as well realized as it might have been, is because they were busy churning out expansion content in order to make more money. Profit over creativity and improvement.

[Tethler]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

LOL, this lack of logic and twisting of words! First you try to redirect the fact of the majority of the 1999 EQ population not being aware/able to get the items into a falsely speculative claim of "me" not knowing about it. Then you try to say I claimed "it never happened at all", which shows you haven't been paying attention to what has been written ever since my first post on this subject. THEN, you completely ignore what I said about the PnP and how people behaved before and after it, which makes it look like you didn't actually play early EQ.

Finally, you completely contradict yourself, exactly describing how your own "camping" experience back then was indeed much different than the type I described in my initial thesis:

Of course it's defferent than your thesis. I'm arguing against your idea that to be "camping an item" you need to be soloing the camp. People camped stuff in groups. Your definition of "camping" is too narrow.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If Guk was not a death box when you played, then what this points to is you not playing early EQ.

I played early EQ. Started in '99, like I assume you did.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Perhaps also your server was more crowded

Maybe so. I played on Bertox. Server was pretty packed. Some camps even had more than 1 group in camp. Freeti in solb had 2 groups killing at times with both groups rolling on boots since 1 grouping there was dicey.

[Jlpstrtkng]

This is all semantics really. Just cause something isn’t solo camped like today doesn’t mean that it wasn’t camped by groups. Look at the fungi tunic. People group that area hoping for that item and roll for loot rights. And that’s present day. Why would 20 yrs ago be any different. If it was all bout XP people would have grouped easier camps

[Gozuk]

Is winning items really luck or is it strategy?

Take Seb for example... anyone who has spent any time there at all already knows. There's only 3 types of characters capable of winning good loot from that zone.

Rogues (better if level 60, and way higher odds to win if they just joined in the last 7mins)

Level 54 Dwarf clerics

Level 60 Ogre Shaman (this only applies when rolling on the spell Torpor, and the Shaman must have it in his spellbook already to win)

It's more about putting yourself in a position to succeed.

[derpcake2]

I remember arguing in classic that NBG in seb was pants on head retarded.

Monumental loss of time, glad I've left EQ behind me.

Judging by this thread, its still wasting entire lives.

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, I've done it twice, and this shit is not what I would ever call "Everquest". There's no reason for the game to have something like that, and in fact it never did have any camps like this when it came out. It's just a clear case of poor design, where the EQ dev team thought they needed to make something be ultra rare in this manner for it to be "more epic", not realizing that busy work doesn't mean epic.

It was more of a "content behind this key isn't finished yet" then a "this is solid content" thing.

Elidroth elaborated that on the fires of heaven forums, its the exact same thing they did with the VT shards and many, many other timesinks.

Of course it still being a thing in "classic" EQ 20 years after the fact is absolutely hilarious, and simply proves you can get people to do any kind of stupid shit once addiction kicks in.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Of course it's defferent than your thesis. I'm arguing against your idea that to be "camping an item" you need to be soloing the camp. People camped stuff in groups. Your definition of "camping" is too narrow.

I'm not sure what your issue is with reading comprehension, but the discussion I've been having this entire time is about how ultra boring solo camps did not exist during early EQ. Moreover, the discussion has been about how the game was never intended to be played in such a stagnant pixel-farming way, and how the early EQ playerbase approached the game much differently.

For something to be camped, people need to know it exists, and be able to camp it. People flat-out did not know about "Short Sword of the Ykesha" existing when the game released. We had to adventure into Guk and find it, and that was after putting extensive effort in to level enough and survive the depths of the dungeon. Again, in the first 6 months of EQ's lifespan, only a tiny percentage of the playerbase was even capable of doing that camp. Groups also generally based their looting on who could use it in the early days. Not casters rolling on melee gear just for the money, or vice versa. Also usually it went by order of who was in the group the longest (there was a lot of group turnover back then), so that cut down on the bad luck of rolling.

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I played early EQ. Started in '99, like I assume you did.

When in '99 though? And were you high enough level to be deep in L-Guk before the era when lots of information started getting databased online or at least before the Play Nice Policy? Doesn't sound like it to me.

Originally Posted by Jlpstrtkng [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look at the fungi tunic. People group that area hoping for that item and roll for loot rights. And that’s present day. Why would 20 yrs ago be any different. If it was all bout XP people would have grouped easier camps

A lot has changed in 20 years. Most people DID group at easier camps, or died a lot at the difficult camps. Not only did they not have the information available now, but there weren't chat programs, and you couldn't even be on the internet while also playing the game. You were just locked into the game (with a UI that gave you a narrow field of vision), with little to go on except what was in front of you.

Like, 99% of the playerbase didn't know what the "Harmony" spell did for quite some time. The playerbase didn't understand how to use Enchanters nearly to their fullest capabilities that get exploited now. A lot of pulling strategies and other mechanics were unknown. It was way, way different.

Fungi Tunic isn't early EQ either. The idea of zeroing in on lucrative camps had definitely become more common by Kunark era, but even then, not that many people were capable of doing the camp. Some people in top raiding guilds hadn't even hit level 60 by the time Velious came out! Fungi Tunic was an item out of reach for 99.9% of the playerbase for quite some time, and the vast majority of the playerbase never even tried to go camp it.